Peloponnesian War Scenario -- Phase Two

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
bump!

How goes tech tree #3, Louis?

Slow

 

[The Last Conformist]

Re: WW, my experience is that it does not work well in scenarios featuring long wars. The high level will cause the gov't in question to collapse, and should only be used if one make sure that civ goes down the drain, or force it to change gov't early on.

The low level will fairly quickly cause extreme unhappiness, but then plateau out - in effect, the player will be annoyed by rioting cities early on, and then, depending on who much happiness-causing stuff is available, either enter permanent stasis, or get on top of it and play out the rest of the scen w/o any further trouble from WW.

To name just two examples, ACW and Mr Black's Iran-Iraq scen were forced to abandon WW due to this behaviour.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Bump!

Kryten says he's begun work on the units this month!

Anyways, what would the specific war weariness be? I mean, Sparta seemed willing to fight until the bitter end, but this somewhat contradicts your idea about high WW.

 

[Louis XXIV]

IMO, Sparta was reluctant to start the war, but, once it began, did not want to stop until factors forced them (the captured Spartan prisoners). But I don't think this was more of an agressive Spartan oppinion, but rather the oppinion if their allies. If Sparta agreed to peace, their allies would (and did) refuse to cooperate. Without them following Spartan oppionion, the Peloponnesian League would collaps.

Athens, on the other hand, did experience War Weariness, but this is the kind of stuff you'd expect when your homes were destroyed, and nothing that could be contributed especially towards Democracy. After the Peace of Nicias became what appeared to be a Spartan batrayal, many Athenians felt that they couldn't trust Sparta in every circumstance.

I think, if equal, Low WW is a bad idea, no WW would be fine (although one less strategic decision).

 

[Amenhotep7]

Why low WW? Shouldn't the WW vary, if only slightly?

 

[The Last Conformist]

There's only two levels of WW available, and the higher one makes a civ effectively unable to fight a long war - assemble 90 WW points (lose 90 units, six cities, or end 90 turns with troops on enemy turf, or any combination thereof) and the gov't collapses, and long before that (at 60 WW points) every single citizen is unhappy (this on top of normal unhappiness due to crowding and so on). The gov't collapse is unstoppable - people have got toppled with every single city celebrating We Love The King Day!

 

[Amenhotep7]

So no WW? Makes sense...Game's 324 turns, and they're in locked war.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'd suggest no WW for anyone, yes.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well, since we're on the topic of govs, what govs should there be in-game? Republic (for Rome), Monarchy....Umm...Uh....

 

[The Last Conformist]

Democracy, Spartan Oligarchy, vanilla Oligarchy, Tribal Federation (Thracians and their ilk), Monarchy (Persia).

 

[Amenhotep7]

I can understand all of them expect "Vanilla Oligarchy". What's the point of that? And what does it mean, anyway? "Vanilla"? Otherwise, good. Now we just need to make the stats for these Govts!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Notice that "vanilla" isn't capitalized. It's not meant to be part if the gov't name, merely to make clear this isn't the same as Spartan Oligarchy. It would apply to all non-Democratic Greek states except Sparta, unless we want to introduce a special one for non-Barbarian non-polis entities like Thessaly and perhaps Macedon*.

Surely you're familiar with the usage of "Vanilla" to distinguish pre-expansion CivIII from PTW and C3C? My usage above was meant to be parallel.

* For the late 5th C, I'd be sorely tempted to leave Macedon as a Tribal Federation, but if the scen's supposed to last well into the 4th, that may be sub-ideal. 'Nother possibility is to stick them into Monarchy.

 

[Amenhotep7]

o... Ya, I know that term, but only heard it with "vanilla Civ3" or something.

So what should the effects of the govts be? Civ3 already has numerous built0in govts e can already use! Tribal Council, Oligarchy, Democracy, Monarchy...Unless we need to change the effects.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Some thoughts on gov't stats ...

Democracy:
Paid Labour
Standard Tile Bonus
No WW
No MP
Draft limit=1
Corruption=Minimal
Worker rate=4
Assimilation=5%

Oligarchy:
Forced Labour
No WW
2 MP
Draft limit=2
Corruption=Nuisance
Worker rate=2
Assimilation=5%

Spartan Oligarchy:
Paid Labour
No WW
3 MP
Draft limit=1 (this'd be basically arming Helots - not popular!)
Corruption=Minimal
Worker rate=2
Assimilation=5%

Tribal Federation:
Cannot hurry
Standard Tile penalty
Xenophobic
No WW
3 MP
Draft limit=1
Corruption=Communal
Worker rate=2
Assimilation=0%
(Yes, this gov't is terrible. It's meant to!)

Monarchy:
Forced Labour
No WW
2 MP
Draft limit=1
Corruption=Rampant
Worker rate=2
Assimilation=2%

(Insert name here):
Forced Labour
Xenophobic
No WW
1 MP
Draft limit=2
Corruption=Problematic
Worker rate=2
Assimilation=2%
(Intended for Thessaly and the like, plus non-Barbarian Italics)

 

[Xen]

I wouod suggest taht the Spartans be Xenophobic, and have forced labor- considering at the time Sparta didnt have a monetary system, it would only make sense....

 

[Xen]

and also, you might want to consider adding republic- crete was apperentlly one, as were several itallic states, as well as carthage at some point, but I dont knwo if they were one at this period of history or not

 

[The Last Conformist]

I suggested the Spartans have Paid Labour because I find it's more useful than Forced Labour, and the Spartans could use some advantages - Democracy is probably stronger anyway.

I don't know much about Cretan politics, but couldn't they go in my unnamed gov't? Naming suggestions for which I'd appreciate. If not, be my guest and suggest a profile!

 

[The Last Conformist]

The idea with setting certain gov'ts as Xenophobic is basically that I don't want the civs in these gov'ts to do much conquering. Wouldn't fit too well for Sparta, eh?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I think Carthage was always a kind of Republic.

Edit: I guess we could call my unnamed gov't "Republic" if no-one's got a better idea.

 

[Xen]

as far as crete goes, what i "know' is rather conflicting- on one hand, i've heard that crete mainlyl kept to itself, to divided in its own politics- on the other hand, there are reference to the entire island being one big republic (a hold over from minoan times?)

as far as Carthage goes, they werent always a republic, as there was 8at least* a king hanno, and if one takes the Aeneid litterally, there was a queen Dido of course