Pere - 001

[gunnerxtr]

good start mach, so the lands not great.... but its not bad. I think building a lot of coastal towns (even if we keep them small) could be beneficial. Im not sure what to do about the trades because we dont wanna trade the spanish our techs then have them go trade them to all their neighbors, but we also want to trade before its too late and we are left in the dust....

we definately need to explore to our west more just to see what else we have going on. But overall when it comes to a total random map then i think we did pretty good hehe.

 

[DBear]

The food situation isn't that bad. We can irrigate the plains from the lake. Those cows look tasty--hamburgers anyone?
Do what you think best on the tech trades. It might be best to wait until you have a second contact, then play tech broker, but they might make deals while you're looking for them. See what Izzy has to say.
I've enclosed a screenie of possible future city sites. See what you think.
Each of the city sites is no more than 3 squares from a fellow city. I think tight city placement is ok here, as the land is not that great.

 

[Elmarae]

Why not build site 2 on the coast instead? because you can't build a harbor on a lake coast (at least that is my experience)

 

[DBear]

Hmm, good point. If #2 were moved se, that would allow room for another city nw of the lake. Plus it is bad to have coast tiles in a non-coastal city.

 

[predesad]

Mach

i agree about the settle next to coast then nw of lake, tight city placement is in order, i am betting we are on an island while spain is on the main continent, suddenly the seafaring trait has more value. I say go for trades now, whatever contacts Spain has we will soon have also and more, I don't think there is a point in holding off on the trades, besides, there are plenty of contacts to be had.

i disagree about writing on MAX, i think we shold go MIN because, IIRC, the base cost of writing is 8, we have a large map and the overall gold cost is going to be 320 gold, which would be 64 turns if not for the 50 min limit. We are not going to do better than the 5 gold to science we are putting out now because each additional citizen in the beginning is going to have his extra commerce put towards lux to keep from rioting. Once one of the warriors gets home then this helps, but at 6 gold, it is still 51 turns. However, a second city could increase gold considerably, the question is: Will we found a second city soon enough to offset the low research and make it worth the effort to go max? An average of 8 gpt to science means 40 turns on writing and that might be the best we can hope for, however I hav enot fully analyzed it to see what i thought we could do longterm i am just looking at the short term, if someone else thinks we can get the commerce up in time to make a considerable difference (and has adequate information to explain why they think so, not just a guess) go ahead and speak up, PLEASE.

I think barracks should be changed to settler then build granary, but that's just my opinion.

Dbear, Mach was stopping short here in case you did not realize it, it is your turn next whenever you have had sufficient discussion and want to go with it.

Again, Mach, seems like you got quite a bit accomplished to kick us off, good job.

 

[gunnerxtr]

i agree that a granary is in order, and have my doubts about the effects of max research on writing, in my experience it just doesnt make a difference in the amount of turns.

 

[Mach]

Oh, I made a little weedy comment earlier -- we can't switch to a settler yet, since we're only at size 2! We don't grow to 3 for another 3 turns, yet we'd finish the settler in 1. So...I think granary is our best option.

320 gold for writing, eh? Time for some guesstimating, a nice Fermi problem here...

We're currently at 5gpt on science. Granary in 6, settler in 4, I think. Then it'll take us about 4 turns to settle either #1 or coastal #2. That's 14 turns at 5gpt...for a total of 70 beakers invested. (The number 5 will go up when we get mp, it'll go down when we get granary maintenance fee, it'll go up when we grow, it'll go down when settler is born...so I think 70 is a decent guesstimate). That leaves 250 to go.

Coastal #2 will give 4g in the city center, plus one more when we get another tile roaded. #1 will give 3g in the center, +2 for a roaded river tile...I think our second city will give 5gpt at first, -1 for corruption. With our capital pulling 5...that's a grand total of 9. Carthage can grow in 5 with the granary, so let's say it takes another 14 turns to settle our third city, so that's another 126 beakers. 126+70 = 196 @ turn 28. 124 to go.

With a third city, that's another 4gpt, so that makes 13gpt. 124/13 = ~10 turns. So I guesstimate writing in 38 turns. Hows my math?

The alternative is writing in 50 turns, while saving 300 gold or more. So if I'm anywhere close...I think I vote for max research...saving 10 turns is a lot, and I'm not worried about getting behind on tech for now -- if we are on an island, all we want is curraghs and settlers and workers and a few cheap mps for awhile...and if we get philo first, we'll have no problem trading ourselves up. What do we need gold for?

 

[DBear]

0) 3100BC: pull the trigger and trade Spain masonry for CB + 10. Izzy will not trade BW for pottery. Move the curragh north. Hehehe, Spain got stuck on the tip of a jungle island!

1) 3050: Fluffy and Rex move sw. Curragh continues northward.

2) 3000: Worker done, moves e (n of Carthage) to road. We need more workers. Fluffy moves s.

3) 2950: Carthage rax-->grain. Have to turn up lux to prevent rioting next turn. Sending Rex home to MP. Fluffy moves s. The w side of the island is all hills and mountains. Curragh keeps sailing along Spanish island.

4) 2900: Not much happens.

5) 2850: worker done roading, moves to BG wsw of Carthage. Curragh finds new island off north tip of Spanish Isle. See if we can find any other civs. Definitely looks like we're on an archipelago.

6) 2800: Curragh heads west, nothing found. Turn lux back down as Rex is home.

7) 2750: Fluffy moves to guard worker, curragh follows coast nw, nothing found.

8) 2710: Curragh heads nw, finds Iroquois warrior. Trade masonry for BW + 10. The military advisor is not happy, but can't help that. Fluffy moves to guard worker.

9) 2670: Curragh continues on.

10) 2630: zzz

11) 2590: Where are the Iroquois settlements?

12) 2550: Carthage grain-->settler. OK, let's expand! Fluffy and worker move n of Carthage, preparing for a road build toward the lake. Suggested settlements include 3nw of Carthage on the river, nw of the lake, 2se of lake on coast.

 

[Mach]

Nice turns DBear. I think the trades were the Right Thing To Do. One question: why did you finish the rax? I had intended for that to be a granary...since I figured we don't need military, we need population to expand. If you thought I had meant to build the rax, then I wasn't clear enough in my turnlog... Or maybe you have reason?

Could seed beast have been wrong? Are we on an archapelago? Or are we on an island off the pangea? It sure looks like an archa...but we can't be sure yet. Spainland and Iroquoisland could still be connected in the east... Either way we need another curragh asap.

 

[predesad]

too bad about the granary, but good work on the trades.

i double checked seed beast and it says it is a pangea again, i doubt seed beast is wrong, i think it is indeed a pangea but with 12 civs 2 could be on islands easily, or perhaps the small section unexplored connects to landmass, we'll find out soon enough

Mach - your math sounds good to me and today at work I was thinking about this & i think we will hit close to 40, so we should go max. i didn't have time to really work out the math last night. initially i was thinking we would end up with something like 47 or 48 turns which i would have rather just gone min than to save 2-3 turns, but 10 turns can be a big deal.

i think we should build warriors for mps no archers & definitely no numidian mercenaries, emphasis should be on workers settlers, even over mps. we have nothing to worry about until map making. a 2nd curragh is in order to explore in the opposite direction. soon we should try to decide if we will try to conquer the world from our tiny island or strive for a peaceful victory type.

good job Dbear

i am sick w/ the flu & can't play right now so I am taking a skip this round,
elmarae, i think you are up next.

 

[gunnerxtr]

good turns dbear, bummer bout the rax/granary but at least we dont have to compete for land really.... i think if we can we might consider annexing spain later on because i cant see us staying on this island the whole game and coming out with a win....

 

[Elmarae]

Heh... all three of my SG's have come due, R&L02 is 1650 AD and I'm starting a war so that will be taking alot of my time. Drizl01 is also in a war on a island map (never could spell the other word for it )

But I think I can knock out the turns in this one first, starts are relatively easy. So I got it and will play in a bit.

 

[DBear]

My mistake on the rax--with only 3 turns left at start I thought it was an actual build so I left it in.

 

[gunnerxtr]

hmm do you guys think we should get a dot map going? i dont wanna screw up settling locations on my turns...

EDIT or are we still going by DBears for the most part?

 

[Mach]

We're pretty much going by DBear's, except for one change. Here it is. DBear's #2 went away, replaced by red dot and blue dot. I don't think we have a consensus on what order to settle in. What do people think? I vote blue dot first, because it can make a 10 turn worker first thing.

 

[gunnerxtr]

what about number 1, it will be on a river and the settler can get there fast as it will already be roaded...

 

[Elmarae]

Why not build 1 on the hill next to it, then we aren't wasting a 2food square? The city automatically makes the hill a 2food square.

 

[Elmarae]

Preflight
No trades to do...
Writing in 38 at 70% Sci or Writing in 38 at 10% Sci? Change to 10% Sci

2510 BC
Move Fluffy to Carthage for MP.

2470 BC
Explore more coast

2430 BC
Discover Iroquois lands
Spain has Warrior Code, won't trade it.

2390 BC
Carthage > Settler > Curragh
Spain most likely sold WC to Iroquois.
Trade Spain WC for Pottery
Iroquois lack Ceremonial Burial (which Spain has) but nothing to trade for it

2350 BC
Found Utica > Rax (may as well build Veterans for upgrading later)
Research Writing in 29@100% or 33@10% Leave it at 10%

2310 BC
Certainly looks like the Iroquois is on their own island.

2270 BC
Carthage > Curragh > Settler

2230 BC
Explore waters south of our island 2-3 Squares of sea indicating there might be land


nearby. Exploring safely for now to see if I see a safe crossing point.

2190 BC
No Coast sighted within 3 squares - May have to suicide run the Curragh.
Started exploring the rest of Spain's coast.

2150 BC
No Coast sighted within 3 squares - May have to suicide run the Curragh.

- Roster -
mach - On Deck
dbear -
predesad - Skipped
elmarae - Just done
gunner - UP

Dotmap - Proposal

The Red X's are where I think we should settle. The Blue X's adjacent to Reds are alternates for the Red X. Blue X's with no neighbours are possible Settling locations.

 

[Mach]

Nice turns elm! I agree with writing on min. Let's leave it there, since we've started on it. I don't think we're going to gain many turns by switching it to max anytime soon.

On this topic, in TR02, dmanakho pointed us at this converstation...here. Scroll to the middle of the thread where DocT, Renata, and Dynamic talk about min/max research. It shows why it can be good to do a max run on something, even though at first the max run shows ~50 turns till it's discovered. The point is as your economy grows, the turns till discovery will shrink...and the early extra beakers you invest will shave turns off the end.

I like your dotmap there, with all the nice X's. I think I like the red spots in general, they give us more harbors. We can place the FP in one of the three most northern red X's. The exception is the easternmost spot -- I prefer the blue dot, as it will grab a cow or two, so it will have food...so it can use the hill the red X is on for production. This corresponds to DBear's #4.

All in all, I think we're making good headway here. Send the southern curragh west...since we're near the south pole, west is more hopeful for finding good land.

 

[predesad]

i cant comment too much right now, but ditch the barracks builds we do not need them right now there are no barbs and we are on an island, no war anytime soon

we should have stayed max since we had already invested several turns at max, but now that we went min we need to stay min.