Pere - 001

[Mach]

we should have stayed max

You could be right, but I'm not sure about this. With the early rax that we're paying maintenance on, plus our second city founded ~6 turns later than I thought, I think we bumped the max run to well over 40 turns. In that case cutting bait by switching to min is ok. Staying at max would have been ok too, IMO it's a close call.

If we manage to buy a couple of slave workers with our riches, I'll be very happy indeed. So everybody keep your eyes open for available workers, and grab them if you can.

I agree, switch the rax build in Utica to...something else. We're growing slowly because of no food bonuses, and we need to compensate for that. So let's concentrate on expansion & exploration for awhile.

 

[Elmarae]

The reason for the barracks build is because I was forseeing building worker then warrior. Eventually the warriors will be upgraded so wouldn't it be best now to have vets?

 

[Mach]

Going for the vets is a good idea, but IMHO it isn't a high priority. Higher priority is expansion, and strengthening our fledgling economy...

I don't mean to be critical, so please don't take offense. I'm learning here too, so I could easily be wrong. I'm just stating my thoughts. I feel like we're not all on the same page, so maybe some more talking is in order? Remember that pred has given us 72hrs to play each turn, so we have plenty of time to talk things out. What does everybody's think our priorities are? What should we be doing next?

Here are my current thoughts, for the next 10 turns...

• continue min run on writing
• if someone discovers writing before us, buy it asap!
• buy slave workers if they become available. It goes without saying, but...check for trades every turn!
• switch Utica to warrior for mp if we can do so without wasting shields, otherwise start granary
• settle coastal "red dot" city next, start on worker
• have Carthage oscillate between curraghs/warriors and settler
• and obviously, explore explore explore!

That's all I can think of for now. Also I'll post a roster. I hope you don't mind, pred, you said you were sick...get better soon!

mach - on deck
dbear
predesad
elmarae - just played
gunner - up

 

[predesad]

That's all I can think of for now. Also I'll post a roster. I hope you don't mind, pred, you said you were sick...get better soon!

Don't mind at all, I am around, but minimum participation right now.

I agree with Mach on a lot of things, most importantly that we don't all seem to be on the same page and i really hope to get some more discussion between turns because I think this game looks like a real challenge. It is on emporer level with a not so great civ with a not so great start with a bunch of players who are just learning emporer so let's put our heads together and also give some lurkers who are more experienced a chance to give advice here and there. I am going to suggest waiting at least 24 hours before playing the turns for ample input, maybe even longer, it's not that i want the game to move slowly i just want everyone to have time to make their suggestions and arguments for their ideas so that the player can make informed decisions.

about the barracks thing - war is not a possibility in the near future, we would need galleys and lots of them to start a war and that's not until map making. We don't even know yet if we'll have the iron to upgrade those warriors, the regular warriors we do build now can just be used for MP and continue MP if we go to Monarchy and never be upgraded. With the tech pace we may not even be looking at a war until the MA, then upgrading warriors to med inf will be very expensive and might be best to build anew and we might go after knights for war in which case no upgraded warriors, right now there are just too many possibilities and questions so, I think it is more important to save the maintenance (did i spell that right?) on the barracks to help our economy, it is going to need help, after all i have not seen any luxuries, did i overlook them or do we not have any (because of illness have not loaded save and i didn't pick any out from screenshot) if we had a neighbor on this landmass i would agree some barracks would be needed but the isolated island start is a unique situation. expansion exploration only, IMHO is the best way to go right now with no thoughts about a future war, we cannot even plan what units we would use for a war unitl we know our resources and where the tech pace will push us when we think of war, but again I am betting the real potential for a feasible war will not occur until about knights.

 

[gunnerxtr]

ok, i got it unless pred wants to take back his skip...

well i could probably play it right now but i feel we need more discussion aswell.

i agree on Machs points almost 100% so unless anyone has any input to add i will play this tommorow afternoon probably.

 

[Mach]

I've thought of a way to describe my thoughts...you guys can tell me if I'm off or not. I'm concentrating on our civ-wide surplus of food. We'll only be able to found +2 food cities for awhile, so each new city gives our civ +2 food. Granaries essentially double the food output of a city. Each pair of slaves we buy is equivalent to a full food bin.

So currently Carthage is at +4 food, and Utica is at +2 food. That's +6 food, which means our civ is gaining a pop point every 3.5 turns. Without any military problems to worry about, my thoughts are toward simply increasing our food surplus so we gain population faster.

pred, to answer your earlier question, there are no luxes on our island, and we haven't seen any on the Spanish Isle yet. The Iroquois have plenty of spices. IIRC we haven't talked about a future govt yet, but I know we are researching toward republic right now. Since we have no luxes handy, should we even be thinking about rep? Without mps...how would we sustain a population? Maybe monarchy would be better? (Doesn't monarchy allow 3mps per city?)

I hope the lack of lux on our isle means we'll have, like, 2 irons or something...

 

[predesad]

gunner - go ahead with it

mach - i think you are right in that we should pursue monarchy, no lux, no mp, will be hard because we would have to import lux and unless we do get extra resources that might not be viable, it is sometimes more costly to buy lux than to use slider if pop is big, since this is emporer we only get one content citizen. any knowledgable lurkers have any input on viability of republic in this situation? oh, & monarchy = 3 MP. sorry i do not have any specific suggestions right now, i have yet to look at a save, i just think to continue to explore and build towards exploration and expansion.

Has anyone given any thought to a possible victory condition yet?

 

[gunnerxtr]

ok so, explore, expand, and after researching writing switch to monarchy path? i will play later today.

 

[predesad]

okay, i viewed the save, pre-turn i suggest the following - in governor set it to emphasize production = yes so that when the city grows the new citizen will hopefully work a forest and settler will be built next turn instead of taking 2 and wasting all those shields. don't really have advice on where to settle, but i think that has really been covered already since several players have posted good city site dotmaps so just use your discretion there. i am also thinking my seed beast could be corrupted or something because it really looks like spain is on an island, the iroquois are on an island, we are on an island, does anyone else have seedbeast to run it on the save, i have ran mine 3 times on 2 different saves of this game & still get pangea, but 3 island starts i am skeptical. there is a small chance spain connects to a mainland, but i doubt it. switch that barracks build to a granary, consider building another curragh in capitol and we need to make some suicide runs if spain does not connect to a landmass and we dont find another crossing soon. if this does turn out to be an arch our game just got a whole lot easier, but lets make those contacts ASAP and that means suicide curraghs (remember, seafaring civs have a reduced chance of sinking)

yes, expand, expand, expand, but also, workers, workers, workers. we do not have a good settler factory site and our food bonus sites are distant so corruption might not even make a worker factory feasible so first city builds might need to be workers.

i am not sure about monarchy path, we can continue down writing path, go for philosophy next and hope for free tech, the AI will research the monarchy path and we can trade for it, of course i am gambling this is indeed an arch and we will be going tech broker. anyway, i am just trying to suggest a tech path which will maximize trading possibilities and perhaps we should wiat until we can trade for polytheism and then research monarchy, any other thoughts on research from anyone?

long term goal consideration: would the great lighthouse give us a GA? If no then we might consider building it, notice I said might. The reason is not just the extra movement and safety in sea tiles but also we can trade across sea, if the iroquois get a harbor built or other civs which might just be seperated by sea then when can trade for lux hoping we do get extra resources to compensate for our lack of lux, or we can use our extra resources we will hopefully have to buy techs. that is just a possibilty to throw around and discuss not really a vote for building it, we just need to consider it. If the Great Lighthouse does give us a GA, then my vote is a resounding no.

oh, and I will just wait until the turn comes back around to my turn and not jump order to make up for skip, keeps confusion down that way,IMO

 

[gunnerxtr]

ok im about to play and the old dot maps arent showing up for me,

settle coastal "red dot" city next, start on worker--- all i need to know is if that red dot is 1E of the old spot or 1SE on the forest? if i dont get this answered soon im going to play, hope i make the right call.

 

[Mach]

IIRC, red dot was on the forest 2 tiles se of the lake. Then there was another dot nw of the lake, and (I think) another one on that hill near the center of our island, the one that the river bends around...

I gotta make a mental note to download the important pictures like dotmaps...

Edit: looks like pics are back up...

 

[gunnerxtr]

thanks mach, saving those pics seems like a good idea, ok playing now!

 

[Mach]

To answer your question, pred, the Lighthouse is seafaring, commercial, and expansionist. So it won't trigger our GA, we're seafaring and industrious. I think it might be worth a try. First question is how quickly can we get Map Making? 28 turns to go on writing, then what, 15/20 on philo? If we get there first, we could take MM as our freebie...so we can have MM in, say, 45 turns at minimum? If we don't get philo first...it'll be quite awhile before we can research it ourselves. Unless we can trade for it.

I see two courses of action here. Our capital is the best suited to build it quickly, with all those bgs. If we let it grow to size 4 (which would mean we'd have to run a lux), Carthage gets 9spt. At size 5, 11spt. So Carthage could build the Lighthouse in something like 30 turns.

OTOH, what if Red Dot City built it. It could get (after corruption) probably 5spt at size 3, 6spt at size 4...and so on. (A lot depends on how high a lux rate we're willing to run.) If we start a prebuild, say, after it builds us a worker...it'll be well on it's way in 45 turns.

This is a toughie. I like the "Red" solution. Carthage has a granary, and having it build a wonder for 30 turns is pretty much wasting it's food production power. Let red dot city build a worker, (maybe two, to be safe?)...then start on a prebuild. It's tough to predict when we'll get MM, and a lot depends on that... We could freeze red dot city at size 3 @ 5spt (by working the forests & one mined grassland) for awhile. Then when we get close to MM, we can let the city grow (turning up the lux) to time it as best we can.

Of course, if we don't think our prebuilds will hold, then forget it. We have pyramids & the colossus ATM, and if we can trade for myst (which is likely...the AI likes to research myst...) we'll have oracle. What do you guys think? Anybody have a better idea?

 

[gunnerxtr]

IT-Switch Utica to granary (warrior would waste shields)
1-Irrigation at utica finishes, not exactly what to do, in my games i would send him to road for the next city, but i am tempted to chop the forest to finish granary faster. I decide to chop the forest.
- Raise lux so Carthage doesnt revolt.
2-Carthage settler> warrior (we need some MP's)
-Lower lux to zero again
- Send settler to coastal spot.
- Send curragh into sea west of our island, so far no coast, hopefully he doesnt sink...
- Looks like Spain is on an island
3- still no coast, i hope i didnt make a bad decision...
4- Carthage warrior > settler
- umm lol our curragh has been following a sea passage, but still no sign of the coast
- SPAIN IS ON AN ISLAND.... weird
5- Finish choping the forest at Utica, definately cut some time off the granary
- Found Leptis Magna > worker as suggested
- uggh looks like the sea passage has ended and our curraghs far from home with nothing to show for it...
6- Spain got The Wheel, wont trade it, which is alright with me because i dont even know if we want it
7- And the curragh sinks... sorry guys
8- Carthage settler > curragh
- Utica granary > worker? i think this is a good idea
- not sure to do with the curragh that we have now, im not seeing many sea passages to do suicide runs on... but we definately need to find one.
9- nothing... explore
10- Found Theveste > warrior
umm either i played an extra turn or i was left with one extra, sorry.

 

[gunnerxtr]

Our Empire-

Spains Jungle-

 

[predesad]

gunnerxtr

spain is definitely on an island and if this isn't an arch map it is the craziest pnagea i have ever seen. what would be the odds of us getting a pangea and starting on an island near two other civs on islands.

And the curragh sinks... sorry guys

sorry for what?? you did waht you were supposed to do and what i suggested, we need suicide curraghs and lots of them to make the contacts ASAP, if we don't find any possible sea passages then send them out blind into the ocean to hope we get a glimpse of sea or coast. IMO, there needs to be no second thoughts about this and no hesitation, build them and send them. We're going to lose them, but the payoffs if we get the contacts while the civs are isolated means we could possibly continue a min research strategy AND lead the tech race although philosophy needs to be researched @ max, just something to think about but i rarely use min research tactics.

as far as Machs thoughts on the run @ map making & the Great Lighthouse, how many shields is the GL, I don't know because I rarely build AA wonders. I don't know that we want to research map right away / grab it with the free tech:

argument against MM:

1) curragh = 15 shields, galley = 30
2) we need suicide runs
3) we trade writing after we get philosophy and MM is one of the first techs AI typically research so we could research something else and trade for it

argument for MM

1) we have time to build up curraghs if we found several coatal cities and concentrate on them before MM
2) the extra movement of a galley might reduce turns at sea / ocean for more successful suicide runs
3) ability to get the GL sooner means sea is safe, movement of galleys = 5, even greater chance for suicide runs
4) since spain is going to be so weak due to poor lands, can consider helping the spanish people by annexing them to carthage all we need are a few "diplomatic" units (archers, horses, swords) to transport with galleys, curraghs can't transport

anyone else want to add their thoughts, i must admit i am weak on arch maps and island starts

mach - up
dbear - on deck
predesad
elmarae
gunner - just played

 

[Mach]

Very nice turns gunner!

@pred -- the GL is 300 shields, so @5spt (Leptus at size 3) that's 60 turns. Which sounds like a lot...but we may not see MM till then. Do you think we'll have continuous prebuilds for that long?

I vote yes on GL. Sure galleys are twice as expensive as curraghs, but with the GL, their 1 turn suicide reach is more than twice as far! (5 movement instead of 3, plus they can leave from a sea square, which is usually ~2 tiles out from the coast...so if a curragh's reach is 3, a galley's is 7 for the same suicide run. Does that make sense?)

This is my got it. But I won't play till we're satisfied we know what we're doing. Three questions...

Shall I start prebuild for the GL now?
What build orders should I give? (I'm thinking settler next for both Carthage & Utica, pyramids for Leptis, and worker --> granary for Theveste.)
What's our final dotmap? Where shall we settle next?
Anybody have any other questions? (Wait, that's four...)

 

[gunnerxtr]

so is Pyramids going to be a prebuild for GL? If we are building the pyramids for the granaries im not srue its worth it because it only affects the continent its built on and our continent is pretty small and expansion should be doable without granaries in every city. I'm guessing its a prebuild though haha.

I think the cows should be a settling priority, they will be able to knock out workers (at least) pretty easily.

I have Utica building a worker right now, and its due in 1 turn, we definately need more workers, but if utica is better served building something else change it.

EDIT: concerning research-- Writing is due in 17 then of course we are jumping to Philosophy at max.... would it knock some turns off if we increased the science rate right now?

 

[predesad]

As far as a prebuild, as long as we dont build it in the capitol, a palace prebuild will hold for any wonder. if we decide to build the Lighthouse might as well go for it after a worker in Leptis, keep that worker dedicated to improving land in that city emphasizing shields (mine before roading) i said palace instead of pyramids so there are no worries about it being built by another civ and any "accidents" happening when changing to something else for a prebuild.

worker for theveste is good and granary i suppose, but although granaries are great, we must watch our maintenance costs

Carthage, perhaps another curragh then a settler

after Utica builds worker perhaps warrior for mp then settler

settle coastal sites first, cow site is a good idea

i am not sure exactly which dot map we are using, but i have my own variation attached where i just put some purple x's where i thought we should settle, some of these cities are going to be fishing villages in the future, others will be our main production cities, this island sucks, anyone agree, of course, it could be worse, we could be where spain is. there are of course going to be other opinions about the exact locations to settle but between my map and Elmarae it's just a matter of preferences. I basically added an extra city on those hills below Utica, in time it can pick up the whales and make a good fishing village, and i also changed some sites to avoid using the oasis and settle directly on the desert instead (still coastal) then i moved a few other site to adjust for my changes, but anything close to this would be good, I guess. Man, this land just sucks, have I said that already?

we have been so long at min, i doubt it would make more than a 1 turn difference if that and we need to just finish out at min. if we start min, stay min, if we start max, stay max (of course slider can be adjusted down towards end of research so you yield gold while not reducing the number of turns) any deviations yields waste and inefficiency.

 

[Mach]

Huh. I had looked the palace up in the civilopedia, and it said it's 100 shields to build. However, Leptis (@1spt) can build it in 300 turns, so I guess it's really 300 shields, perfect for GL prebuild. What's going on here...is there a bug in the civilopedia? Or does the palace cost go up with map size, or something?

As far as the dotmap is concerned, it looks like we have a plan for the eastern towns, and the northern coastal towns. (I'll settle cow towns next, and try to get some irrigation over there.) I think I like the extra town in the western mountains -- those cities aren't going to have the food to work many of those mountains, so we might as well found more of them. I'm not sure of the three non-coastal northern towns -- they seem spaced too close together. (I'm thinking we may be heading toward a diplo or space win...) Maybe we can found one of those three cities? We can always abandon it later...

I'll play it tomorrow, so everyone has time to give me their advice.