Performance of the British army in WW2 - how good?

The Nazis (mainly the generals) never really grasped the importance of logistics, especially oil. The much vaunted Panzer divisions can't do jack when they run out of gas.
They undoubtedly did grasp the importance of "logistics". They did, after all, build one of the largest and most powerful armies in world history, and managed to keep it fighting for a very long time. Furthermore, German leaders threw an awful lot of effort into ensuring the military had enough raw material and productive capacity at its disposal to operate at maximum possible effectiveness. One of the most interesting parts of Tooze's book was that he argued that the Nazis were actually about as effective as could reasonably have been expected in mobilizing their available human and material resources. Time and again, Hitler demonstrated that he cared a great deal about ensuring Nazi access to key resources and production, and about denying the same to Germany's enemies. That was, after all, the entire point of the summer offensive in 1942.

It's true that German leaders often made extremely aggressive attacks, often with shoestring forces and difficult supply lines. (To, y'know, say the least.) That wasn't because they didn't care about logistics. It's basically impossible to run an army and not care about logistics. They were just the apostles of a method of waging war that encouraged high-risk, aggressive offensive warfare. The likes of Halder, Brauchitsch, Paulus, and Rommel knew at least as well as their subsequent critics that they were stretching their supplies to the breaking point. They all did so because they thought that they were seizing the moment, keeping the initiative, and pushing the enemy harder than the enemy was pushing them.

And they would be far from the last soldiers to outrun their effective supply lines chasing a battlefield victory that didn't quite materialize. The same thing happened to the Red Army in the summer and fall of 1944, and the Anglo-American forces in Western Europe in September-November. As soon as the Falaise Pocket was destroyed, Eisenhower and SHAEF unleashed the tanks east in full knowledge that they would be forced into a logistical pause around the beginning of September. Stavka, too, seems to have understood that the Tank Armies could not keep rolling forever. But they still attacked. They were following what is still military orthodoxy: pursue a beaten enemy to the last possible extremity. And in some of those cases - Paulus at Stalingrad, for instance, or Bradley at Aachen - there's a reasonable argument to be made that more competent leadership might've lessened the logistical pinch just enough to purchase some sort of operational victory.

It's also true that the German leadership regulations, Truppenführung, said that the application of will was the foundation of military victory. Some authors have made a big deal out of comparing this to Nazism, and there was an undoubted synergy between some aspects of Nazi ideology and the Wehrmacht's approach to leadership. But the focus on human willpower to overcome material obstacles is hardly unique to Nazi and German leadership. Napoléon was neither a Nazi nor a German when he made his comment about the moral being to the physical as three is to one. American military regulations have long highlighted the primacy of morale. So did the directives of the Red Army. Were the German military's leaders unusual in embracing the principle to the extent that they did? That's a trickier claim to argue than one might think.

The Wehrmacht recognized, to an extent, that it would deal with logistical overstretch when invading the USSR. (Some of the wargames before June 1941 came close to indicating the sheer strain that it would place on the German war machine. Many did not.) Its leaders, however, expected to treat this as a relatively minor issue, because they expected to destroy the Red Army in the initial battles, close to the border, just as they had done in France and the Low Countries. It was this error, far more than logistical calculations, that doomed the German invasion. The Red Army fought, died, and resurrected itself far more effectively than the Germans had ever dreamed. It wasn't just that the Germans had to march and drive hundreds and hundreds of miles along paths choked with dust and swamped with mud in the vast emptiness of the Russian steppe. It was that they had to do it while fighting.
 
Last edited:
They all did so because they thought that they were seizing the moment, keeping the initiative, and pushing the enemy harder than the enemy was pushing them.

And another point to add to this is that the strategic position of Germany essentially demanded this kind of action. They had to either win fast, or be ground down by the superior industrial capacity of the Allies...and that was all there was to it.
 
Dachs, I suppose my view is colored by the logistical straightjacket German generals found themselves in Russia and Rommel in North Africa where he would launch major attacks with enough fuel for maybe a handful of days of combat operations.
 
or Bradley at Aachen

But the Hodges won at Aachen, I thought it was the post Aachen fall/winter campaign that goofed it all up?

Rommel in North Africa where he would launch major attacks with enough fuel for maybe a handful of days of combat operations.

Rommel was more hamstrung by having to make due with what resources he could get his hands on in North Africa than by Axis production. Anytime you're trying to conduct major operations in an area you know you can't support them, you're gonna have a bad time.

When in doubt, blame Mussolini...
 
Dachs, I suppose my view is colored by the logistical straightjacket German generals found themselves in Russia and Rommel in North Africa where he would launch major attacks with enough fuel for maybe a handful of days of combat operations.
Sure. That's exactly what I'm talking about. The Germans repeatedly convinced themselves that they had destroyed the Red Army (or the British Army) and that all they needed to do was to follow up on their success. The pursuit had to be hard and ruthless, cost what it may, but only a ruthless pursuit would destroy the enemy forces, and if a total victory could be secured from such a pursuit then it was unquestionably worth the hardships that the troops had to deal with.

That's why, say, the German offensive after the destruction of the pockets at Viaz'ma and Briansk looks so bizarre. They spread out their forces all over the place, to locations where they could never have been supported against the Red Army. The thing was, the Germans didn't think they were going to have to fight the Red Army. Time and again, Halder and Bock convinced themselves that they had annihilated the Soviet forces to their front and that all that remained was to mop up. That's why they repeatedly made the incredible assertion after the war that an attack on Moscow in August/September 1941 would've ended the war. It was ridiculous. The road to Moscow was guarded by the entire Western Strategic Direction, which was launching offensive after bloody offensive around Smolensk and El'nia to try to drive the Germans back. German military leadership managed to pull the wool over its own eyes to the extent that they simply forgot some of the most savage battles of the war. Even decades after the fact, some of the German generals still could not wrap their heads around the notion that the Red Army had been in some ways a lot more powerful than they had ever given it credit for.

So yeah, the Germans outran their supply lines, and this was a problem, but it was a problem because they sometimes engaged in incredible self-deception to allow them to see what they wanted to see: that resistance was crumbling, and one big push could win the war. The hell of it was that they came perilously close to being right in 1942, in front of Stalingrad.

German officers were perfectly capable of exercising restraint when they had a different appreciation for the situation. In fact, they sometimes engaged in too much restraint, like when Rundstedt and Hitler put the brakes on the mobile troops in May 1940 out of fear that they were extending out too far. But I think putting the focus on logistical problems is missing the point. It's not wrong - the Germans did indeed run into logistical problems at some key moments of military extremity, which made victory for them extremely difficult to imagine. But the source of those logistical problems was the fighting power and regeneration of the Red Army. (Or, in the case of the British in North Africa, the fighting power and regeneration of the Eighth Army.)
But the Hodges won at Aachen, I thought it was the post Aachen fall/winter campaign that goofed it all up?
The first attempt at Aachen, in mid-September 1944, failed. It was VII Corps by itself, and although Joe Collins was the best corps commander the Americans produced in the war, and although his troops had plenty of juice, the Spearheads and Big Red One couldn't quite punch through south of Aachen.

There were several problems with the offensive. First, Bradley and Hodges had Collins try to sneak through between the Hürtgenwald and Aachen, to the south of the city. There was very little space here, in what is often called the "Stolberg Corridor", and the terrain was not conducive to an offensive. Secondly, and more importantly, Bradley and Hodges deployed First Army very badly. In early September, Twelfth Army Group had enough fuel to move two of First Army's three available corps. VII Corps and XIX Corps were in eastern Belgium following the victory at Mons, and V Corps was further south, close to the Ardennes. Instead of hammering the Germans in a single place by using VII and XIX Corps in depth to break through the slowly hardening German defensive crust along the West Wall, Brad and Hodges "layer-caked", launching two offensives with corps side-by-side (making the resulting diagram look a bit like a layer cake: one corps sector on top of the other in a neat stack). V Corps was splattered against the Ardennes sectors of the West Wall to no point or purpose, and VII Corps came painfully close to a breakthrough at Aachen but couldn't quite manage it, with German Seventh Army streaming in reinforcements as quickly as they became available.

Bradley desperately wanted the main Allied effort to stay out of Montgomery's hands, after bad experiences with him in North Africa and Normandy. He wanted to keep First Army as far south as possible, to avoid having it work together with the British. But he could only modify SHAEF's plans so much. So he sold Ike on having V Corps move further south, closer to Patton, although not even remotely close to mutually supporting distance. He detached a division from XIX Corps to back Third Army up because an entire corps of Third Army was still in Brittany on the pointless siege of Brest. All this did was dissipate American combat power to no point or purpose, and except for the Big Red One's tiniest of toeholds, the Western Allies were unable to hold on to any ground east of the West Wall.

After the fuel situation eased slightly, Bradley tried again in early October, moving XIX Corps north of Aachen to attack near Geilenkirchen. This was much better ground for an offensive: more open, with fewer streams crossing it. Slag heaps and miners' villages made decent cover for a defender but not nearly as good cover as the Germans could find in the Stolberg Corridor, and there was much more space to deploy American armor. If the Americans had sent VII Corps in by Geilenkirchen instead of in the Stolberg Corridor in September, backed up by XIX Corps in column of divisions, it's entirely possible the Americans could've reached the Rhine and given Eisenhower the battle against the still-coalescing German strategic reserve that he so badly wanted. Three weeks, however, gave the Germans plenty of time to strengthen the West Wall fortifications and bring up disposable Volksgrenadier formations. XIX Corps went in on 2 October missing a division, but it was competently handled by its commander, Charles Corlett, and it contained one of the best American units of the war, the Second Armored Division. Hell on Wheels and the Thirtieth Infantry Division managed to hammer a way through the German pillboxes and secure a double envelopment of Aachen by linking up with VII Corps. With the German defenders increasing in density day by day, the Americans could go no further east, and instead sat down to besiege Aachen at tremendous cost in lives and munitions. Corlett, who generally had the right tactical ideas and was enraged when Bradley and Hodges did their typical thing and shot them down, clashed with higher leadership too much; Bradley had him relieved and sent back to the US, an unfortunate end for a commander who had performed quite well in the Pacific and had done as well as could've been expected at Aachen.

After the arrival of more American infantry, including Bill Simpson's new Ninth Army (deployed north of Aachen in the Geilenkirchen gap), the Americans launched one final push in November. This was the QUEEN offensive, which stood out for its peculiar lack of forethought even compared to the other attacks Bradley's Army Group had made that fall. In September and October, Twelfth Army Group had thought it could reach the Rhine if they just broke though at Aachen. By November, Army Group leadership was still aiming for the Rhine, but German resistance was so heavy that field-grade commanders figured that they'd be lucky to make the Roer River, thirty kilometers east of Aachen. And nobody had bothered to figure out how to get over the Roer. Massive dams in the Hürtgenwald controlled the Roer's flooding, and if the dams were damaged or opened the Germans could inundate the area and create a formidable water barrier (as they in fact did later that winter). An offensive to capture the dams before pushing for the Roer would be tricky, especially since the Hürtgenwald was an American graveyard already, but it would at least demonstrate a bit of foresight. Alternatively, the dams could have been destroyed early by air attack (allowing the Americans to trap German forces on the wrong side where they could be mopped up as the Westerners waited for the flood waters to recede), or the Americans could have tried to push hard enough, with a corps or two in column of divisions, to reach the Roer with German troops left on the west bank - which might prevent the Germans from blowing the dams until after the Americans had a solid bridgehead. (This was the probable result of an American offensive in September or October, back when the German defenders were not nearly as thick on the ground.)

Bradley and Hodges ignored all these problems, if they even realized that they were problems. Instead, they layer-caked their forces, kept up a uniform advance across the front, and ground down the Germans slowly, at the usual high cost in lives and munitions and time. Ninth Army, further north, had a smarter command team; Simpson had his corps commanders cooperate with British XXX Corps at the inter-army group boundary to hit the Germans by surprise in an area that the Germans thought the Westerners would be weak. They managed a high rate of advance, especially by comparison with First Army - until Bradley explicitly ordered Ninth Army to slow down and allow First Army to close up on its flank, destroying any chance of crossing the Roer, reaching the Rhine, or luring Sixth SS Panzer Army out of its lair.

And, of course, all the while, First Army hurled division after division into the Hürtgenwald on a mission to seize the ridges that made German artillery observation of the Stolberg Corridor possible...and therefore incurred far more casualties than the German artillery ever would've caused on its own, while wasting men and machines that might have aided the push for the Roer and Rhine. Patton famously said that even the tent-maker [Bradley] would admit that Courtney [Hodges] was dumb, and he was undoubtedly right. Hodges was an unimaginative disciplinarian who at least cared for his men, but didn't care nearly enough to develop competent operational solutions to the problems that faced him. Instead, he was a rigid tactician who focused on solving each individual tactical problem in front of him without bothering to think of whether an entirely different approach would negate the need to solve any of the tactical problems. If First Army ever came up with a brilliant idea, it would've originated at VII Corps HQ. Hodges' troops fought hard, but they fought harder than they ever should've had to.

The whole Aachen offensive was borderline criminal mismanagement at the American army group and army levels that ought to have earned Hodges a relief and Bradley a court-martial for insubordination.
Rommel was more hamstrung by having to make due with what resources he could get his hands on in North Africa than by Axis production. Anytime you're trying to conduct major operations in an area you know you can't support them, you're gonna have a bad time.

When in doubt, blame Mussolini...
He knew they were unsupportable, true. He also knew that he was kicking the British Army's tail on a regular basis, and that the proper response to a victory was to follow it up. Rommel's immediate problem was that he followed up in the wrong direction. Instead of going after Malta like OKW and the Italians wanted to do, he plunged deeper into Egypt. He, of course, did have bigger problems, like whether he and his men should've even been in North Africa in the first place.
 
I'm curious dachs, how much time to spend on posts like this?
 
Who wouldn't want to have Dachs as a teacher.
"Let me tell you why the textbook is wrong and go to a more interesting topic!"
 
like whether he and his men should've even been in North Africa in the first place.

I mean if only there were some other active front at the same time. One where a "decisive struggle," if you will, was taking place. One where the Wehrmacht was spread thin and could really have used some extra mobile formations.
 
Mixed, the navy performed well as did the RAF but the army had outdated tactics at the start of the war, and had a terribly low budget

The first world war took britain from an incredibly rich country to a somewhat poorer one as britain financed the allied war effort until it ran out of money.
 
Mixed, the navy performed well as did the RAF but the army had outdated tactics at the start of the war, and had a terribly low budget

The first world war took britain from an incredibly rich country to a somewhat poorer one as britain financed the allied war effort until it ran out of money.

Here some numbers:

Total war effort allied forces 126 Billion USD, central powers 61 Billion USD

GDP's in 1913 & Financial cost: 1914-1918:
US: 517.4 & 22.6
UK: 224.6 & 35.3
France: 144.5 & 24.3
Russia: 232.4 & 22.3
Italy: 95.5 & 12.4
* UK colonies: xxxGDP & 4.5

Germany: 237.3 & 37.8

If I look at those figures the UK did spend in rougly the same proportion to GDP as France (and Germany), Italy at two thirds of that rate.
Russia is less, but I think that the GDP per capita in the underindustrialised Russia did severely decrease the "free spendable" GDP share.

So no real extreme UK burden to GDP.
But I agree that WW1 marks the begin of the decline of the UK. A decline also being relative to others countries.
I think simply because the UK was the most industrialised nation at that moment, leaving bigger improvement/growth room for other nations in their catch up (just like China etc now).

http://spartacus-educational.com/FWWcosts.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)
 
The russians in particular had british aid financially by means of extremely cheap loans (which isnt reflected in those figures)- and the financial cost to the UK wasnt just the money spent. Britain was the leader in finance at the time (it had fallen behind in absolute manufacturing already)

The war caused massive problems for the financial sector and doubts that those who we gave loans to could pay them back, and in contrast america flourished, largely due to its period of official neutrality allowing it to be the new target for purchases and finance.

Britain had to liquidate massive amounts of assets held in countries such as the US in order to pay for both the loans it gave the russians etc and as a means to get dollars currency.

In short, britain was already behind the states and germany in some ways, but was still rich pre ww1, the war changed it all quite dramatically.
 
The russians in particular had british aid financially by means of extremely cheap loans (which isnt reflected in those figures)- and the financial cost to the UK wasnt just the money spent. Britain was the leader in finance at the time (it had fallen behind in absolute manufacturing already)

The war caused massive problems for the financial sector and doubts that those who we gave loans to could pay them back, and in contrast america flourished, largely due to its period of official neutrality allowing it to be the new target for purchases and finance.

Britain had to liquidate massive amounts of assets held in countries such as the US in order to pay for both the loans it gave the russians etc and as a means to get dollars currency.

In short, britain was already behind the states and germany in some ways, but was still rich pre ww1, the war changed it all quite dramatically.


I did not realise those loans !
Thanks for that.
And I agree that the US is the big winner of this war. A to GDP modest amount, and a nice boost to economy.
 
Britain had to liquidate massive amounts of assets held in countries such as the US in order to pay for both the loans it gave the Russians etc and as a means to get dollars currency.

Indeed, the U.S. was was about to cut off financial lending to both Britain and France in 1917 due to (completely realistic) fears that the Entente wouldn't be able to pay them back. The U.S. really had two options to resolve the situation in 1917, either cut off all financing and cancel all contracts by the Entente and actually become the Neutral country they had always claimed to be, or join the war. Luckily for London & Paris, German unrestricted commerce raiding helped the U.S. answer that dilemma.

During the negotiations for the Treaty of Versailles in 1919, the U.S. delegation thought it was high comedy that the French were demanding such high reparations from Germany, given that they were in such deep debt themselves. And the Treaty itself led to the crazy situation of :France has to pay back the U.S., France demands its reparations from Berlin for that year, Weimar Germany can't pay so they receive financing from the U.S., the French pay the U.S. back with their own money; repeat for next year.
 
During the negotiations for the Treaty of Versailles in 1919, the U.S. delegation thought it was high comedy that the French were demanding such high reparations from Germany, given that they were in such deep debt themselves. And the Treaty itself led to the crazy situation of :France has to pay back the U.S., France demands its reparations from Berlin for that year, Weimar Germany can't pay so they receive financing from the U.S., the French pay the U.S. back with their own money; repeat for next year.

 

Haha kinda, but the U.S. knew exactly what was going on. That's part of the reason the Hoover government forced the Lausanne Conference in 1932, to put an end to the silliness by getting the French to back off on demanding the reparations if the U.S. was willing to renegotiate the Entente's war debt. Because the Great Depression had just kicked off and ain't nobody got time for dat anymore.
 
Back
Top Bottom