Persian immortal rush

kingdarius

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
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I have been playing around with the following start on Monarch:
Research Animal Husbandry, then wheel, mining, bronze
Build Settler first, then worker
Settler and scout go together to closest horse and found a city directly on the horse. Build an immortal.
Immortal trys to go capture a worker from another civilization.
Two cities both start baracks
Worker(s) builds road between citys, then chop.
Mass 3-4 immortals and wipe out civ after civ.

That actually goes pretty well. The tricky part is that when I run out of civs on my continent, I also run out of money and my research crashes. I fall behind the remaining civs briefly, but am able to catch up when the other civs start fighting with each other and I have a nice big continent to myself. On my first try my entire army and work population went on strike and spontaneously disbanded. Second try I was careful to pinch pennies and managed to make the transition to peacetime economy and get my science back up.
 
nice idea man. I tried similar with good effect. I only play Cyrus, as must you. I'm a little biased, nut I think the Immortal is one of the better UU in Civ 4.
 
I play random civs, but did end up with Cyrus once. I really hadn't considered them before, but I was quite shocked at how effective the immortal is early on. I crippled the other 3 civs on my continent for quite some time, and eventually wiped them out as I cruised to a generous tech lead (on my side of the world at least). And to think, when Cyrus popped up I thought I'd be having a peaceful builder game :D
 
Here are a few more tweaks to the strategy.

Of your first three cities (two settled, one captured) it is ideal if you can task two for immortal pumping (this is more about chopping forests than hammers initially, although hills will be beneficial later on) and one to be a science/commerce/wonder city. The science city should have plenty of river squares, and gold is a good thing. Whenever its convenient move your palace to the science city. Skip the barracks and the court house here and go for library, monastary, etc. Probably build the oracle here so you don't disrupt the war effort. The science city is important, so I wouldn't hesitate to chop out a settler if I couldn't find a suitable city for the taking. But I haven't had this problem. Usually my starting city or some other nearby civ's starting city is a good fit.

After bronze, research writing. All the civilizations will sign open borders with you so you can more easily steal their workers and case them for future conquest. Find all the bronze - you must control it or wait until you get catapults for that civ. I found it helpful to leave the civilization in the middle for last, because it was so convenient to slide over their nicely built road network. It's also nice to converge on it from all sides in the end-game (catapults/axemen are _slow_) Of course if you attack their friends they are likely to pull their open borders agreement, so a little diplomacy is helpful here.

Then research (masonry if you have marble), mysticism, meditation, priesthood. Chop rush the oracle and get code of laws and probably Confucianism. Spread confucianism to your science city if it doesn't already have a religion. Adopt whatever religion your science city has; build a monastary there. Chop rush courthouses in all your conquered cities. You can chop rush a court house while the city is still in rebellion and not building anything itself. You might want to adopt the caste system so you can force scientists or merchants to work in your captured cities. This can be a good way to keep your science/gold going, prevent the city from growing beyond its happiness limit, and pump great scientists/merchants for your science city at the same time.

Then it's pottery (start building cottages all over your science city), masonry, mathematics, construction. Those catapults are going to come in handy by now.

After this in no particular order I suggest:
Civil Service - Bureaucracy will jump start your science city (move your palace there!)
Monarchy - bigger cities through happiness induced by armies.
Iron Working - you don't _need_ swordsman, but you want to keep the AI from getting them; prior to this you might want to pillage all mines just in case.


Random points:
If you have the choice of more than one horse resource, remember that you can trade along rivers - it's less work and rivers can't be pillaged by barbarians. Pick the horse that can be quickly networked to your capital. Take full of advantage of rivers when networking newly conquered cities.

You can bypass one city hill civilizations by dedicating an immortal to pillage and harrass them. You can fortify on the square next to the city (preferablly a hill) with impunity as their archers can't hurt you. This can be better than burning a bunch of immortals on a charge up a hill just to get a sorry city you would burn anyway. Watch their build up by hovering your mouse over their city. Eventually they will build a two archer + 1 settler group and send it out. Take it out to capture another worker and prevent their growth. The AI will prefer hill locations for their defensive value, so expect them to head to a hill not far away from their besieged city.

Be picky about the cities you keep. I will keep most capitals and burn the less developed cities unless it is a particularly good location or a holy city. Remember unlike the Roman you will pay full price for courthouses so you need a wide area of trees to chop for them. Also you don't want to be prepping more than one or two conquered cities at the same time; the pressure on your gold will be too much. Keep the best and burn the rest.

Don't let your gold go all the way down. Sometimes you will have deficit economies that you can't overcome except by having a warchest. You will have to micromanage your science bar to keep the war effort going. Judge how many turns you are from conquering another city and set your science accordingly. If you mess up anarchy can be a way to stave off an impending gold crisis/strike. Just pick some available civic and revolt - then keep chopping out those courthouses.
 
I wasn't all that happy with the immortals in Civ 4. They aren't nearly as effective as their predecessors in Civ 3 (in my opinion). As a country Persia is fun to play but Immortals aren't strong enough to turn the tide. I always end up close to Rome and the Pratoreans eat my Immortals for lunch. And if it isn't Rome it is Greece and their Phalanx also have a steady diet of Immortals. Sometimes Rome and Greece will both declare on me...you get the picture. By the time you can get a good standing army mix up for an invasion your Immortals are obsolete.
 
I have to say, I'm disappointed with the Immortals as well. They just don't compare with many of the other early UUs - even axemen and swordsmen can trash them.
 
astute1 said:
I have to say, I'm disappointed with the Immortals as well. They just don't compare with many of the other early UUs - even axemen and swordsmen can trash them.


Dont underestimate the innate 50% withdraw bonus. That means that while yes, an Immortal is inferior to technologically more advanced units, you dont lose the unit when you lose the battle. 3 Immortals can usually take out even a Maceman, and you'll still have those 3 immortals after the fight (especially if you invest in Flanking), you just have to rest them.
 
Rome should not be a problem - just don't let them get praetorians. The trick is speed. Your first military has to be an immortal. Steal the Roman worker - no worker, no mine. Chop out barracks and immortals like crazy; mass an assault and there's no way Rome survives. Using open borders and your free scout you should quickly find all the bronze on your continent. Controlling it is key.

If Rome (or greece) is not close enough, don't pick a fight you can't win. Pick easier targets first and then mass axeman and catapults. Rome will fall.

Immortals are great for four reasons: they are cheap, they are fast, they retreat 30% of the time before promotion, and they eat archers for breakfast. Take advantage of this. In a recent game I faced an AI Rome that had already mined bronze. I quickly massed my immortals and pillaged the bronze, but the AI already had two axemen in Rome. Fine, I went to destroy Antiem. But the silly AI then sent the axemen to antiem. Using the speed of the immortals I quickly got between the axemen and Rome. The axemen attacked and I took losses, but with the axemen attacking me, the losses are reasonable. If I have to attack axemen fortified in a city - its catapults or forget it. Likewise if you face a high culture city behind walls. Just be reasonable: immortals aren't the all powerful unit of Civ3; but they are great by themselves early and still useful together with axeman and catapults later.

All bets are off if you face a human player of course. The first time might work, but the second time you'll find their second city on bronze pumping out spearman.
 
Palantir30 said:
Dont underestimate the innate 50% withdraw bonus. That means that while yes, an Immortal is inferior to technologically more advanced units, you dont lose the unit when you lose the battle. 3 Immortals can usually take out even a Maceman, and you'll still have those 3 immortals after the fight (especially if you invest in Flanking), you just have to rest them.

To take the comparison further:
Chances are you will lose one of the first two immortals, the other retreats, and the third kills the maceman. At the end you have lost 25 shields and your enemy has lost 70 shields. Your initial investment was 75 shields for 3 immortals, only 5 more than the one maceman and you can build it with just 2 technologies. A very nice unit indeed!
 
astute1 said:
I have to say, I'm disappointed with the Immortals as well. They just don't compare with many of the other early UUs - even axemen and swordsmen can trash them.

Axeman and Swordsmen are supposed to trash them, unit per unit. In the open, shield per shield, immortals are competitive because of the retreat capability. But as civ help says "don't bring a sword to a gun fight". If the other civ gets a big army of spearman, better bring axemen and catapults. Archers are the backbone of early AI civilization defense (and barbarian) and immortals trump archers decisively.

But you can't make axemen without bronze or Swordsmen without iron. And you can't expect to attack a civilization across the continent _before_ they turn into an untouchable high culture monster city when you are crawling across the map at one square per turn. Persia is by far my civ of choice for warmongering.
 
So, to recap:

1. Start your invasion early.
2. Head straight for your opponents metal and pillage it.
3. Use the UU's two selling points to the max, they're cheap and they can withdraw. Bring heavy numbers and wear your opponent down. Once you've taken out your opponents resource dependent units (with minimal losses), you're all clear. The cities are yours for the taking.
4. Bring Medics. You'll need them.

The advantage Cyrus has over Huayna Capac is that Immortals are fast. You do lose some of that speed in recovery time, but atleast you'll spend little time in enemy territory, reducing that upkeep cost.
 
Agreed. However, Huayna Capac has two big strengths over Cyrus : financial and aggressive.

But nice strategy, i like it!
 
Don't underestimate Expansive on higher difficulties, where often even size 1 cities occasionally suffer from health problems. Creative can be a godsend in early wars. While Incans have much more versatility and can be played many ways (starts with Mysticism for early religion, Quechuas means you can ignore Archery, Financial is the best trait in most situations), Cyrus is built for early conquest and does it even better in my opinion.
 
I'm not even sure that Cyrus does it faster. Huayna Capac gets barracks quicker. His units start with combat 1 for free and so can get the +25% vs archers straight from the barracks. On small maps, Huayna Capac may be able to create a huge empire faster with cheaper barracks and cheaper units, meaning less build time. On larger maps, you're right, Cyrus would be faster, because then unit speed on the map becomes more of an issue.

One thing i think we can agree on is that even if Cyrus does create a bigger empire faster, Huayna Capac will be better at managing his own empire and will catch up sooner or later.
 
Excellent summary; but also stealing workers is key to the start. Immortals with two movement can steal workers that other units can't, because once you declare war all the workers will hide in the city. The longer you wait the harder it will be to steal workers because cultural boundaries will spread out. That first immortal can usually steal a worker from two different close civilizations. Run the workers back to your immortal factory and you are pumping out an immortal on every turn until you run out of trees. Plus you have seriously crippled your AI opponents by depriving them of workers.

Given the choice I'd probably prefer Agressive/Financial + the immortals, but Creative/Expansive is not so bad if you leverage it. Creative gives you a big early culture boundary which gives a wide chopping radius free of animals and an early warning system against approaching warriors. Expansive lets you settle on flood plains and clear cut forests with impunity which in the early game can be just as effective as financial. Obviously as the game goes on Creative/Expansive become virtually worthless compared to Agressive/Financial which just gets better and better. The persians are all about BC; just conquer the world before 100 AD and you are set!

Things that will make you restart as a Persian:
Your scout gets eaten and you can't find horses.
You get stuck on a peninsula 20 jungles spaces from anyone else with no forests in site.
 
With stolen workers Cyrus is definitely faster. Chop, Chop, chop - barracks appear. Huayna Capac better hide the workers when he sees my immortal coming. Huayna Capac looks like a winner for multiplayer games, but I think Cyrus is stronger against the AI.

This worker stealing could well classify as an exploit; the AI will blithely keep digging a mine with an immortal sitting one square away. Clearly the AI should be a little more careful (as a human would) and this could be addressed in a patch. Also, it's a little amusing how willing the AI is to accept open borders even when you are flooding immortals throughout the land. I think a person under these circumstances would not be so willing to grant open borders.
 
But don't try this on deity.

My first time on deity with cyrus goes something like this.

Find scout in hut - good.
Scouts find more huts, gold, and even mining. This is going to be easy.
Horses pop up and they are just three squares away. This has to be an ideal start.
Immortal is built, one scout is ambushed by barbarians but I still have one scout fortified in my capital and an immortal in Pasagarde. This is my zenith.

Alexander shows up with two chariots, declares war on me. A barbarian archer moves on persopolis. The two chariots take pasagarde and the archer wipes out Persopolis. Game over.
 
What do you guys think of Egyptian War-Chariot rush? Would it work about the same way and be just as effective?
 
No, they're worse. It's worse at dealing with Archers, which is the majority of opposition you'll be facing, and it has a lower chance of withdrawing causing higher losses. Spiritual is better than Expansive on lower difficulties however.
 
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