Philosophical/Industrious

[Swein Forkbeard]

This is a really strong combination I have to say. For those of you arguing about it.. simply try it out and you'll see that it is clearly stronger than most other combinations.

Just for fun I gave it to Augustus so he had Phi/Ind and I had him starting with hunting for scouts and mysticism so I could found Hinduism and get access to the starting wonders sooner. Forums I think are the best building to take advantage of this combo after looking through the list. I also happened to start with stone nearby and my 3rd or 4th city got Marble.

People arguing about this combo simply don't understand the strengths of a Specialist Economy and this trait combo just makes SE absurdly strong. I used my Praets to overwhelm Bismark early and gained some very solid cities/territory. My empire was about 3x the size of all the AIs and I was pumping out specialists every few turns. The nice thing was that even tho I didn't focus Engineers I was able to build a ridiculous amount of wonders.

The other amazing thing about a SE is that if you get Angkor Wat (I think), all your priests are producing 2 hammers.. my empire wasn't just a research factory but it was a hammer factory as well. I was so far ahead infrastructure/military wise that nobody could keep pace. I find that a CE struggles to build buildings and troops while a SE can produce every building you desire quite easily since all your cities are producing a crazy amount of hammers with priests / prophets going to town.

Parthenon + Forums + Philosophical + Pacifism + National Epic is just insane. =P

You should IMO test this out with one of the game's weaker civs, such as America, Babylon, Germany, or the Khmer, BUT NOT ROME!!!!!

 

[Angst]

^^ Babylon? Khmer? WTH?
Khmer's UB is actually awesome in SE, Babylon's bows rush like the devil's after them...

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Babylon is only awesome because of Hammurabi's traits; I was talking about the civilizations UU and UB wise.

 

[Angst]

Babylon is only awesome because of Hammurabi's traits; I was talking about the civilizations UU and UB wise.

In MP Bowmen secures you against axe rush and protects you against swords. And they're cheap. You are protected through the whole ancient and classical (Except when playing against Persia or Rome). That means you can expand fast and peacefully.

 

[repeatoffender]

So "just for fun" you decided to set up close the best situation you possibly could, and based on that you concluded that it's unbalanced? I mean, I played a Deity tiny map, and Quecha rushed, so I guess we can conclude that Quechas are horribly unbalanced?

Bh

I never said unbalanced I just said "really strong."

and before the Praets or Forums came into play I was already doing VERY well. Infact, my first war was won with axemen mostly (no Iron til I took it from Germany).

 

[Bhruic]

You said it was "clearly stronger than most other combinations". That's the definition of "unbalanced".

And I'm not talking about the UU/UB. I'm talking about the fact that you deliberately set the starting techs to favour your strategy, and then rolled a map where you started with stone and marble nearby. If you load things in your favour like that, any choice can appear "really strong".

Bh

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

In MP Bowmen secures you against axe rush and protects you against swords. And they're cheap. You are protected through the whole ancient and classical (Except when playing against Persia or Rome). That means you can expand fast and peacefully.

Oh, okay. I don't play multiplayer (because nobody ever wants to play with me).

Like I said, place a Philosophical/Industrious leader with a civ that has a weaker UU and/or weaker UB. Here are some ideas.

Meiji of Japan
Why: Japan's UB comes really late, and, with the factory nerf, it just "blah!" And the Samurai's first strikes won't help them against longbowmen, since they also have first strikes, and longbowmen are what the AI builds most on defense (okay, not in BtS, but crossbowmen and knights will also slaughter samurai any day of the week).

Paul von Hindenburg of Germany
Why: The Panzer doesn't add much over the regular tank with the advent of AT Guns in BtS. And the German UB comes extremely late (although a Philosophical German leader could run away with the extra engineers, but then again, Frederick is Philosophical, and to add to the mischief, he gets double speed production of Assembly Plants!)

 

[repeatoffender]

You said it was "clearly stronger than most other combinations". That's the definition of "unbalanced".

And I'm not talking about the UU/UB. I'm talking about the fact that you deliberately set the starting techs to favour your strategy, and then rolled a map where you started with stone and marble nearby. If you load things in your favour like that, any choice can appear "really strong".

Bh

Clearly stronger than most other combinations and unbalanced are not the same thing at all. The starting techs weren't even that big of a deal. Hunting didn't benefit me that game as I didn't pop any good huts worth mentioning and I could have founded Hinduism first or gone for Judaism either way that game. I didn't even pick the map to have stone nearby and if you read this thread you'd see that having stone only gives a very minor difference at all as Industrious + stone together isn't that big a deal. Marble was FOUR cities away..

How about you go play one and tell me what you think about it.

 

[L4zXX0r]

You said it was "clearly stronger than most other combinations". That's the definition of "unbalanced".

Bh

Unbalanced could also mean something that is "clearly weaker" as well. Also, the Praetorian is "clearly stronger" than every other swordsman unit. The Rathaus is "clearly stronger" than any courthouse UB. So I would argue that your definition of "unbalanced" is "clearly not right." Unbalanced to me could mean "too weak, that no one would use it, unless they wanted a challenge, or two overpowered, that simply by using whatever it is that is unbalanced, gives you an almost unfair advantage. Having been a competitive gamer for many years, that is how I see the definition. In addition, something could be so good, that EVERYONE uses it. Like the axe rush, for example. Which to me is the most ridiculous part of the early game, is probably not overpowered, but it's such a good strategy, that not using it, say in multiplayer, would probably mean you lose. Making it less fun, and maybe to some bad players, "over powered".

 

[L4zXX0r]

Oh, okay. I don't play multiplayer (because nobody ever wants to play with me).

Like I said, place a Philosophical/Industrious leader with a civ that has a weaker UU and/or weaker UB. Here are some ideas.

Meiji of Japan
Why: Japan's UB comes really late, and, with the factory nerf, it just "blah!" And the Samurai's first strikes won't help them against longbowmen, since they also have first strikes, and longbowmen are what the AI builds most on defense (okay, not in BtS, but crossbowmen and knights will also slaughter samurai any day of the week).

Paul von Hindenburg of Germany
Why: The Panzer doesn't add much over the regular tank with the advent of AT Guns in BtS. And the German UB comes extremely late (although a Philosophical German leader could run away with the extra engineers, but then again, Frederick is Philosophical, and to add to the mischief, he gets double speed production of Assembly Plants!)

i'll play you multiplayer! 1 on 1 duel map, fast speed!

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

i'll play you multiplayer! 1 on 1 duel map, fast speed!

What to do, what to do...

Oh, sure. I think I am better off being a MP player than an SP player given my limited amount of time.

 

[martin026]

Sorry, did not read through all ten pages of this thread, so if this has been mentioned and debated, my apologies.

Why not make it so the PHI bonus does not apply to GP points from wonders. The main complaint I could see is that it would nerf PHI for leaders who don't have the industrious bonus. It does not seem like it would be too bad though.

 

[kniteowl]

^ Well if you're gonna nerf Phil you should boost it in another area... maybe +50% Longer Golden Ages, and Golden ages now Give +2 Beakers to all Specialist, (3 seemed over the top).

Comparing SE to CE, Pre biology assuming you can only work grassland tiles (ignoring all other tiles and resources) you're required to work 2 Grassland Farms in order to feed one specialist which also requires 3 Citizens. Compared to a CE where you can just work both grassland Cottages and you only require 2 Citizens.

Therefore a CE under during a GA will give you an extra 2 worked Commerce which can be converted to either a maximum of either Gold/beakers/Culture/Espionage.

Compared to a SE which just gets the 2 beakers.The CE is more flexible.

Obviously the +100% GPP benefits the SE More, but he CE should also benefit assuming you have a GP Farm.

Since Phil no longer effects Wonders, they may want to change the Wonder GPP output, maybe National Wonder produce 2GPP and World Wonders produce 3GGP (it's optional and requires testing) but that's my preference in game balance.

 

[vicawoo]

I don't see why there's this huge argument about switching civs. It probably will disqualify you for the hall of fame, but at best it makes the game easier, which can also be done by changing difficulties, turning on permanent alliances, rerolling, and setting the AI.

 

[Tlalynet]

If im going to play Philisophical ill stick with Phi/Fin. Phi/Ind would be fun to spam on lower levels like noble or prince for me, but Fin helps a lot with EARLY teching so you can get to metal casting in a reasonable amount of time. Metal casting makes engineers which make wonders, you have the whole thing going just the same. Any way you slice it Phi/Ind doesent start snowballing untill you get that first wonder up, and if you want to do really well you need an Engineer which means pyramids or metal casting, either way thats a lot of time for the AI to get a lead over you, and its kill or be killed early game whenever I play a harder level.
Phi/Ind would be suicide in MP, its a big I'm building a valuble early wonder and have a weak army sign on the back... The Phi/Ind MP player would have to play aggressivly, and that would somewhat mitigate the benifit of the trait combo.

Why do people like Fin/Org, Ive played it, it does nothing for distance costs, Civics are pretty cheap overall anyway... Org is my only shunned trait...

 

[Bhruic]

Unbalanced could also mean something that is "clearly weaker" as well.

True. Did I ever say it only meant that?

Also, the Praetorian is "clearly stronger" than every other swordsman unit.

I don't think there's much question the Praetorian is unbalanced.

The Rathaus is "clearly stronger" than any courthouse UB.

Comparing it to such a limited sample group has no real meaning.

So I would argue that your definition of "unbalanced" is "clearly not right."

Considering it fits the examples you gave, I don't see why not. Besides, turning this into some sort of BS semantics argument is extremely stupid.

He said it was "clearly stronger". He implied that meant it shouldn't be in the game. It's pretty damn obvious that he meant that it was "unbalanced". If you want to argue about it being "clearly stronger", go ahead. But let's stop dancing around the issue with meaningless word games.

Bh

 

[Bhruic]

Clearly stronger than most other combinations and unbalanced are not the same thing at all.

Oh, come on, don't pull that crap. Whether or not you actually used the word "unbalanced", that's pretty clearly what you meant.

"People arguing about this combo simply don't understand the strengths of a Specialist Economy and this trait combo just makes SE absurdly strong."

That doesn't really have any other sensible interpretation.

I didn't even pick the map to have stone nearby and if you read this thread you'd see that having stone only gives a very minor difference at all as Industrious + stone together isn't that big a deal. Marble was FOUR cities away..

I have read this thread. I've also particpated in this thread. And if you read it, you'd note how weak Industrious becomes when you have access to both Marble and Stone.

How about you go play one and tell me what you think about it.

I have played with it. Multiple times. That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I'm arguing about your methodology, not your conclusions.

Bh

 

[kniteowl]

^ It really depends on Play style, Anyone who wants to Spam Wonders like crazy defending their city with near to nothing deserves to be rushed and/or Conquered.

Ind Civs can build Wonders at 33% cheaper, I mean SH would be useful in those Boarder pops at a cheap 80 Hammers. if you settle more then 3 Cities you've already saved hammers on monuments but that's just an example, there are many ways to leverage Phil/Ind as long as you balance between Wonder construction and Military Defense.

the Organized Trait in the early game is all about the Cheap courthouses, normally they cost 120H but it's 60H with Org, -50% Maintenance for 60H is a great deal, especially if you can whip them for 2 Pop. People generally do this with recently captured city that are Size 4 and up which means you can keep the war machine going without crashing the economy.

Once you reach COL it's time for Expansion generally through military means. Combine it with Financial and it gets pretty sick.

The -50% Civic cost doesn't really kick in until the Middle to late game when your Saving Hundreds of Gold when running High Cost Civics Which can mean an extra 10% on the slider.

 

[Tlalynet]

Courthouses are handy but unless your going for spying or confusism Currency is beter, that extra trade route adds at least one gold per city, and maintainence costs are usually 2-3 gold at that point, the free trade route is as good so you can build more military or markets, which are beter than courthouses.
I understand how Org works, I just dont find it a very usefull trait, your right it adds up a lot late game, but the time you need every ounce of power you can get is early game, and I find its a trait that just doesent help with that. Same reason I dont play protective often, its a powerfull trait, but it really doesent shine for me till post gunpowder. I guess Org COULD be a good trait, but Fin will make you much more right from the get go, Char will let you support a bigger pop early on, Phi usually starts to help fairly early, Spi saves vital early turns, Cre helps define boarders. Org/Fin just doesent seem like a powerhouse.

 

[L4zXX0r]

He said it was "clearly stronger". He implied that meant it shouldn't be in the game. It's pretty damn obvious that he meant that it was "unbalanced". If you want to argue about it being "clearly stronger", go ahead. But let's stop dancing around the issue with meaningless word games.

Bh

Well I think he meant "clearly stronger." Since he says, "clearly stronger," not unbalanced. As for arguing semantics, I work a graveyard shift. I have nothing better to do in the middle of the night when all is well and quiet.