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Philosophical or Industrious?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by VCrakeV, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Chieftain

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    As we (should) all know, these two traits can't be taken together. Even with mods, it feels like cheating. They're other good traits out there worth taking instead, but Philosophical and Industrious are more broad in use, and don't require a particular play style. But it begs the question... Which is better? Is one only better than the other for certain playstyles? What traits pair with them the best?
     
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Difficulty level also matters. Bulbing techs is stronger on deity than on noble.
     
  3. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Phi is basically all about Great People generation, while Industrious makes it easier to get Wonders, either which can support a variety of different strategies (although the obvious synergy between Great People and wonder spam is why there are no Phi/Ind leaders). The cheap Forges with Industrious can help you with anything that requires hammers. Philosophical's cheap universities can also help get Oxford marginally faster.
     
  4. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Chieftain

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    I think Industrious is better because of fail gold.
     
  5. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Chieftain

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    What's fail gold?
     
  6. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Putting hammers into a wonder with bonus production from the IND trait, associated resource, or both, and then intentionally not completing the wonder. When the AI eventually completes the wonder you get gold compensation for all of the hammers you had invested. This can be done across multiple cities to produce very large amounts of gold in ideal circumstances.

    There are some drawbacks to the strategy like the uncertainty of when you will actually receive the gold, but it's still a very powerful economic tool.
     
  7. nate46

    nate46 Chieftain

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    Phil is nice but the problem is the +100% great person generation doesn't multiply with pacifism or national epic, it just adds. due to the diminishing returns of GP points, you're probably only getting one extra bulb out of the philo trait, or maybe two if you really leverage it, at least until the industrial era. Its great if you go for oxford though, universities are so expensive if not philo. I pretty much never build oxford if not philosophical--i mean, 1200 hammers in just universities is pretty freaking expensive.

    industrious is OK. For quick early wonder strategies its about equal in strength to imperialistic. I wouldn't call it general use though, since if you don't go for wonders or early metal casing, its only benefit is the fail gold which is nice but not good enough to be worth a trait.

    ...

    Off topic, but what do you guys think are the best traits? i saw a thread on it but it was really old.

    My personal opinion:

    Tier 1: Imperialistic, Financial.

    Tier 2: Creative, Organized, Philosophical, Industrious, Expansive, Spiritual

    Tier 3: Aggressive, Charismatic, Protective.
     
  8. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I think Philo gains you a lot more than that. You get your early great people much faster which snowballs over the course of the game and also allows for some different strats. You can also potentially skip/delay investing in the NE, particularly if you don't have marble because Philo + Pacifism is already quite strong and of course a golden age can also be used on top of that. That combo can allow you to get numerous great people in one golden age which is great for bulbing Lib and maybe upgrading units.

    I still think PHI/IND are Tier 1 traits. I understand why you like IMP given the way you approach all of your games, but I'm not as wild about it. I think CHA is way better than the AGG/PRO tier as well. It's much stronger than IMP for warring and the free happiness can be a big deal early in the game.
     
  9. nate46

    nate46 Chieftain

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    I really need to learn how to leverage philo better. I don't think i use it right in most of my games. Bulb timing is tricky ....
     
  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Most players here consider Imp to be one of the weaker traits, and Chm to be one of the stronger ones. Personally my favorite leader is Hannibal (Fin/Chm) because he can do war and peace about equally well.

    I don't like Phi as much just because it takes a lot more work to leverage it than Fin.
     
  11. nate46

    nate46 Chieftain

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    hmm... it seems to me that imp is the most generally useful trait.... I mean, unless you're playing one city challenge, you're always going to build settlers and its always going to save you 5 or 10 normal speed early game turns. It really shines with terrible starting positions like where your only capital food is a plains cow or something since you can just make your cap a 1 pop settler factory. Also great on high pressure maps where you need to get your strategic resource city down before the barbs become trouble or before the AI's snatch up all the good land. The great general production is a nice bonus.

    as for charismatic... whenever i roll that trait i always grow my early cities to stupidly large sizes and then regret it later... I guess its great if you have tons of food and no luxury resources.
     
  12. nate46

    nate46 Chieftain

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    but back on topic... philo and industrious...

    whats the general consensus on why industrious is so good?

    with industrious the obvious strat is to oracle metal casting and then build forges everywhere to make full use of the trait. But where do you go from there? Do you go for trebs or something?

    Metal casting is such an odd tech because you can get it really early with oracle and its expensive but what does it really do for you? It doesn't help you catapult rush, and in the medieval its an easily traded for tech that isn't that important for getting liberalism faster. I guess you can transition into a treb rush. Its good if you're china and you can make chu ko nus.

    You can wonder spam with oracle and pyramids and great library and such, but whats your game plan once you're done wonder spamming? Its hard to bulb things properly after wonder spamming since you never know what you're going to get, so is this really faster to liberalism than just building libraries and cottages and running pure scientists? Is there a way to leverage wonder spamming into a significantly faster liberalism race win? The fail gold is nice but hard to plan around.

    usually when i get ind I build a bunch of wonders then get bogged down with a random mismatch of great people and no further plan...
     
  13. sinimusta

    sinimusta el capitano

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    Aesth-line offers a lot of wonders for failgolding and many with resources. If you plan for lib-reace, then there is usually enough time for the aesth wonders to be build, especially as aesth and the following techs are usually used as trade baits, so that way the AIs will get tech needed to build the wonders.

    I think IND is more about picking the wonders you want cheaper than just mindless wonder spam. That GPPpollution, well the mentioned GLib gives quite good odds for scinetist, you can build wonders in different sites, maybe not in the GP farm if possible. The other GPs have their uses like I love some GE pollution from mids, if you're lucky it might give you GE, when the Taj race is near and Golden ages are a good option too.

    And the national wonders are easier to plan around.
     
  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    CHA means bigger cap early in the game when happiness can be scarce, but also the ability to whip other cities more without running into happiness problems.

    With IND.. cheap forges are excellent, early wonder strategies are a little easier to pursue, and it gives you the ability to generate fail gold from not only world wonders, but national wonders like the HE and NE as well. It can lead to polluted GPP pools, but it's still more GPP points and even priests and such are good for golden ages.
     
  15. Chase_2_Rabbits

    Chase_2_Rabbits Chieftain

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    IND is very useful for early wonder strategies. Even if you've got Marble/Stone, you're unlikely to get them hooked up in time for TGW/Oracle on harder difficulty levels. IND is the only help you can get with the GLH.

    MC is good trade bait, and IIRC research and wealth go through the forge multiplier, so they help prop your economy up on low :commerce:, :hammers: economy starts. Hopefully along with some fail gold.

    It's all about playing the map though. Certain traits are going to be more useful than others depending on your settings and the roll you get.
     
  16. Virupaksha

    Virupaksha Chieftain

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    Both are mid-range traits, well behind financial, spiritual and expansionist and probably below creative as well.

    Just running caste between whips will get more great people with SPI than PHI. IND for failgold is maybe better but hard to see how it competes with financial. SPI>PHI, FIN>IND, expansionist probably trumps them all.
     
  17. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Chieftain

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    Can someone explain what makes CHR more notable than EXP? I use EXP, and I still find health to be more of an issue than happiness. Also, what's the big deal with FIN? Am I just overlooking how good the extra commerce is, or is it something you just slap on when unsure what to pair with your other trait?
     
  18. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Have to say i disagree with pretty much all of this.
     
  19. Virupaksha

    Virupaksha Chieftain

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    For me It would be as follows:

    Tier 1: Spiritual
    Tier 2: Expansionist, Financial, possibly Creative
    Tier 3: Creative, Imperialistic, Philosophical, Industrious, Organised
    Tier 4: Aggressive, Charismatic
    Tier 5: Protective
     
  20. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Expansive is good, but not really for the health bonus. It's much more for the faster early worker and the half price granaries. Sure the health bonus is nice, but health is usually only a problem in one city - the capitol.

    FIN can be really powerful early in the game if you start on rivers. Fresh cottages are immediately 3C. Some riverside resources become 3C as well.
     

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