Philosophical or Industrious?

I'm playing the Hatshepsut game on Deity. Stone nearby, build the Pyramids, obviously.

Nope, they got built in 1360BC, or turn 66.

Oracle was built in 2440BC, or turn 39.
 
As as newer player with some other TBS game experience, I feel I look at the traits a little differently than the ways most of the vets here are seeing them. It's pretty eye-opening coming here, and I'm aware that difficulty level has an effect on the value of the traits too as certain things that work on lower levels are unfeasible (if impossible) to pull off on Deity. Frankly Deity terrifies me at this point :D

Keep in mind I have a couple biases: in turn based games, I learned a long time ago that advantages in the early game, no matter how small, are often "worth" more than even very strong advantages that come later (and the later they are, the more diminished they become!). On the contrary, from RTS gaming one of the things I picked up, purely a preference, is that macro trumps micro *if* you can pull it off. It is much harder to wear down an established giant with precise strikes because it takes so much to make them collapse; you need an overwhelmingly concentrated amount of power to make a dent, and even then if it was not decisive enough they can often recover or at least operate at diminished power that is still much higher than yours.

Oh yeah, and after reading some more of the discussion, I should preface this that I play Noble and am still not very good at the game. i can definitely see where difficulty level can change the values of some traits.

In any case, here's the way I view the traits, in no particular order.

Spoiler :
Financial: due to how it boosts so many different sources of commerce, the trait almost applies as a net 50% economy bonus (that slowly slides down to about 20% or less later) over a civ without it all things considered. You have to leverage it actively though: cottages, windmills, settling coast, etc. The ramifications are huge, and the power of this trait only grows the longer game goes and you develop more land, working more tiles. Commerce lets you do everything better except land grab, and in my mind most of the other traits' building bonuses are attempts to get ahead of Financial before it booms to a true monster. Great at any time of the game, but a late game monster. In my mind it is without a doubt the *best* trait overall even if it's not the absolute *strongest*, as it is very easy to apply and helps out anything. Well, unless you play a map with deliberately unfavorable terrain, and even then, you'll be doing better than a civ without it with the right improvements! Not much else to say about it: it's good! The only trait that feels like a perk and not a trade-off to me. Note that while Financial is not exactly interchangeable with Organized, the specifics about Organized means it saves you a lot of expenses you might rack up through certain actions like war, specifically gaining cities, and for a warmonger Organized is a great substitute for Financial that requires less effort (just build courthouses in your newly captured cities, save a ton on upkeep+civic costs from the new population!).

Organized: Some important infrastructure boni for setting up in the early game, a bit of ease on your expenses. I see that a lot of more experienced players don't like it, probably because of the bias towards war in the metagame and what that entails (whipping reduces population = lower civic cost as one example, financial is better at floating a strained economy, etc. ). The civic bonus indeed is most effective the faster you expand and grow and diminishes much later when inflation starts happening, but there is a large window before that when you are both obtaining more total population by any means (expansion, war, growing) and unlocking better, more expensive civics before your expenses plateau and/or you reach State Property, which kicks this trait in the balls. Cheap Lighthouses: good for going coastal strats, whether as Darius or not, as they are pretty much a requirement to work coast for a benefit. Cheap Courthouses: even at the low level I play, these are probably the best thing about the trait. Maintenance costs can cripple you readily, I hear they're even worse on higher difficulties, CoL is a fairly early tech depending on how you play. These let you war and keep cities more readily or help prevent prematurely ending your campaign due to costs. Cheap Factories: *if* you are going space race or absolutely have to fight a modern war, they're okay I guess. Much more mileage can be gotten out of Industrious' cheap forges though, and by the time you can get factories, they aren't exactly prohibitive in the cities that can actually benefit from them: no need to build them everywhere if you don't have to. Overall I like Organized (it's my favorite trait actually) because it's always at work for you all game, and the bigger you get, the more it helps similar to Financial -- in a way. The drop off towards the later years doesn't mean it isn't still helping you out, but I'd rather take even the health or happiness bonuses at the point that cities are trying to grow as big as possible, while Financial would be helping the economy better than Organized ever could alone. At least it pairs well enough with any trait because of the passive cost reduction. Darius' combo of both Organized and Financial has a monster economy though!

Expansive: My former favorite trait, after understanding the game more (specifically what to prioritize, diplomacy and tech bulbing) I dropped it as I'm not a heavy warfaring type of player. The name is deceptive, as the trait is a general early power booster and doesn't necessarily help only with expanding (Imperial is that one). It's also a huge warmongering trait. At face value, you get some extra health, and speed bonus in setting up some important infrastructure (granaries+workers). Big whoop, right? You might grow some more a little bit faster. Well if you understand how important whipping is and how much more efficient granaries make that, you suddenly see that the cheap granaries is a massive leg up on another civ without it. You can get them in place faster, whip anything you want earlier, and press that advantage into a huge snowball effect. You even get to spend less time building your initial workers before Pottery/Bronze Working! The quintessential trait to getting a war machine off the ground. Later on, when you get into the post-heavy whipping stages of the game (which may be never for some players!), your cities can grow approximately an extra pop each before unhealthiness caps them, as happiness rarely restricts a city later on after Drama and even then you don't have to even think about touching the culture slider until mass Emancipation starts happening unless you are embroiled in a game length war whipping your hands to the bone. It has obvious synergy with another war-focused trait, but it works well enough on its own too if you just want a general whipping advantage for building infrastructure, expanding, etc.

Charismatic:Another trait I used to like a lot more for the wrong reasons (my favorite leader was Washington because, well, 'Murica!). The early game happiness can be a very real help when you get into the whipping stage, as happiness is a much bigger detriment to max city size than health and it helps offset this. Even if it is so slight in magnitude, relatively it's quite large (+1 happy when you have a cap of 4 or 5 with no luxuries is huge...) Whipping essentially stacking unhappiness in the city when abused too much is softened a bit. Your cities can get an extra pop before they HAVE to whip or starve. Etc. Etc. Biiiiiiig early game advantage for a slavemaster. The faster promotions is where it's at though, and the trait's strongest advantage by far, and why it is the warmonger's best overall trait IMO. Later promotions having their costs reduced is so much more valuable than the GGs from Imperial IMO and pays off more in the long run than Aggressive. This is the trait you want if you plan to war all game, not just rush. The later bonus to broadcast towers is literally a non-factor (who cares with Drama?) but you could probably pull off some wonky Stonehenge tie-in with a Stone start or De Gaulle to get more whipping done.

Aggressive: This trait screams "RUSH!" This trait supports "RUSH!" Cheap Barracks + your first promotion on the most common attacking units early game for free? Pumping units that can earn their 2nd upgrade for free earlier than any other civ? Pretty cool! A match made in heaven for those with a more bullying approach to their opponents. The drydocks are kind of eh (are you really going to build that many, or not use Theocracy or Vassalage in their place?). The only downside to this trait is that it's not even better for early game aggression by promoting mounted units instead of gunpowder, but oh well. I also understand that on higher difficulty, it's kind of hard to push the AI around early on without very favorable circumstances, for what it's worth. Pair it with another warmonger trait like Expansive or Charismatic and you can be extremely dangerous. Hell, Shaka and Boudica ARE extremely dangerous, though apparently Genghis sucks. Clearly the power of the trait falls flat as the game goes on beyond keeping your promoted units around, but as I feel early game advantages are much more game defining, this is an acceptable price and you can only blame yourself if you don't leverage it to get your some of of those highly promoted units to hang around for upgrades later.

Imperialistic: This one is an oddball to me. Faster GGs make it support a warfaring strategy well (assuming you make good use of the Generals and don't squander them) but the Settler speed makes it the fastest expanding trait in the game, even quicker than Expansive. Unlike most of the other traits too, I don't feel like this trait ever gets any weaker or stronger based on the length of the game. Sure, you can no longer expand after a point, but the more you develop your land/build your infrastructure or the more cities you take by force, the more lucrative your empire becomes over time anyway, making this loss moot. The Great General earning speed is good for combat of any era, war happens at all stages of the game after all. I have come to appreciate it this trait more as I have moved from the "peaceful builder" newbie phases and started becoming more comfortable with aggression and war in general, as the GGs can really turn an offensive push into a overrun by injecting a ton of XP into a stack, or simply making it easier to create super-medics for your stacks. I'm a compulsive fast-expander too (habit from RTS games) so I like that part of the trait too. Overall though, I don't think this trait isn't that powerful alone, and depends a lot the one it pairs with. For instance, Catherine with Creative+starting with Mining is the best land grabber in the game, Joao can spit out cities faster than anybody else by pairing with Expansive AND starting with Mining, Cyrus benefits from fighting wars successfully more than anybody else, Julius Caesar and Victoria can quickly set up large, sustainable empires, etc.

Creative: Like Expansive, this trait is about getting off the ground quickly and it helps with that in chiefly two ways: border popping 5 turns after you settle (well, on normal speed anyway) means you can grab land very fast and shut the AI out before they can get their grubby hands on it. You can also settle every city with the full size of the BFC in mind from the outset, unless it absolutely imperative to hook up a strategic resource ASAP. The cheap libraries let you pursue a quick tech advantage for whatever end: trading, getting an early war tech or simply jumping ahead in the tree to get something else faster like Liberalism. Even if a city cannot generate much commerce before cottages mature or without a commerce resource, as long as you can sustain 3 population on one tile with a food resource, you can earn 7.5 beakers and eventually bulb a tech. I found this trait very useful for the border control as a brand new player and after that I found it useful to keep teching after I would cripple my econ through too much expansion :lol: The trait is so much better if you can get the Pyramids one way or the other and run early Representation, so that should always be a part of the plan if possible in the back of your mind. Every city running 2 scientists would earn 15 beakers for only 3 pop, or the equivalent of 5 commerce per tile at that size, totally independent of your slider setting. Such an amount is like working a fully mature non-financial river Town tile before applying civic/tech bonuses. And again, it's independent of any commerce the city earns and thus your tech slider, though the library will also increase any beakers earned through commerce that the city does earn via any source. I don't really think the already dirt-cheap theaters or rarely needed colosseums really deserve mention.

Industrious: Lets you build wonders faster. I hear it thrown around all the time that it more or less lets you get your first pick of a certain wonder. In personal experience, tech choices and your plan at the moment dictate whether or not you can get a wonder or not more so than the advantage of this trait, similar to how having Stone or Marble does not guarantee you getting Stonehenge or the Oracle if you have other things to accomplish (okay, the Oracle is a bad example, but still). Still I find it handy for grabbing those wonders that can't be sped up any other way like Great Lighthouse or the Apostolic Palace, especially since there might be a race for these if you don't beeline or refuse to chop. If anything, it means I can get my favorite few wonder combos with some certainty when I have a start/civ with the techs to go that way: Masoleum of Maussollos+Taj Mahal, Oracle-->Colossus, and simply making sure I can absolutely get the Pyramids or Kremlin before the AI if I go for them. The cheap forges are likewise a great part of the trait, boosting productivity in stages earlier than the factories of Organized and tying directly into fast Colossus or Engineer bulbing strats even without having to rely on the Pyramids.

Philosophical:+100% GP points. To be honest, I put these following three traits last because I don't like them and haven't really tried to leverage them. I understand the extra GPP helps you get the first couple faster and like anything that can snowball, but I haven't been able to really play any maps where I successfully pulled off a GP farm with much success. I just tend to use wonders + Golden Ages and focus on free GP from techs to achieve this, and there's always Pacifism in the religion civic tree doing the same thing for cities with the religion. I also don't know why you'd pick a rigid civ-wide trait towards something that will only help a city or two max, from the way I understand GP generation strategy, though it's better than nothing. Pacifism is pretty much the only other civic there I'd consider other than OR as I don't like FR because the diplomatic benefits are too useful to manipulate AIs and I don't like the inflexibility of Theocracy either. It seems like it has some tie in with Creative for speeding up some GS or GAs for bulbing though.

Spiritual: I see the obvious diplomatic advantages of being able to swap at will, especially religions, and the cultural victory implications from being able to spam temples. Shwedagon Paya and the Pyramids both look very important to getting the most out of this trait, as well as spreading religion. In fact, I think this trait is probably the best one for either cultural or AP diplomatic victory (which i have done successfully quite early a few time before). However, of all the traits except perhaps Philosophical, I can find more excuses to marginalize this trait than any other. Major civic changes can be cut down with careful planning, and Golden Ages help you switch. If you are sufficiently busy doing something, like embroiled in war with your science slider to 0%, is a turn or two anarchy even THAT bad? Once you start racking up tons of turns of anarchy maybe I could see it, but I rack up maybe 3-6 total for a whole game, ever, and a lot of that is dependent on how far it goes and the timing of golden ages among other things. Religion spreading to control the diplomatic atmosphere isn't hard, and the best religious civic for that matter IMO is the first one you unlock, OR, which consequently makes those temples and cathedrals easier to build. For that matter, temples aren't exactly expensive to start with if going for cultural, and a Financial civ could do that extremely well regardless of cathedrals unless you are spamming as many religions as you can. I have never needed this trait to ever pull off Religious Leader, only careful teching/an opportunistic bulb and monopolizing as much of the share of the AP religion as possible. Theology conveniently comes with founding of a religion to leverage to this end if you get it first. Etc. Etc. Perhaps it's just way different on higher difficulties and I need some enlightenment. By all means, please correct my thinking, I'm here to learn.

Protective: Okay, this one I know sucks. Outside of a specific rush with the Chinese I know about but never tried or maybe spamming Sitting Bull super Longbows to buy time in a specific frame, it just doesn't seem worth it for one particular reason: defending in cities is subobtimal in the first place. Not least of all because you can't choose exactly when/where to engage. Enemy stacks are much easier to check with offense/counterattacks; they don't get defensive bonuses when they are out trekking around either, so you'd better be taking advantage of it and go hit them! If you don't already have a ton of cultural defense built up it's really not going to slow down an opponent bringing powerful/a lot of siege. If you can't muster to check an enemy stack, a city isn't going to stop them anyway and you're better off either wearing them down through guerrilla attrition tactics or regrouping deeper in your own territory while they waste time fighting what forward forces you have. The elephant in the room is that you shouldn't ever have to fight a defensive war in such a way in the first place if you control the diplomacy correctly or are the aggressive warmonger yourself. I understand that it's harder to do these things as the difficulty goes up, but it likewise makes this trait even more useless because you can't offset the massive advantages of the cheater AIs with it alone.


some IMHOs....
Strongest Trait: Expansive
Best overall Trait: Financial
Weakest Trait: Protective
Worst overall Trait: Protective
Best overall combo: Expansive/Financial (Pacal), although his civ is definitely not the best due to starting techs/UU/UB.
Worst overall combo: Protective/Aggressive (Tokugawa, ha!)
Other best combos: Financial/Organized (Darius, huge economy), Expansive/Aggressive (Shaka, best overall early game aggressor period), Financial/Philosophical (Liz, best of both economy types in theory), Charismatic/Imperialistic (Cyrus, huge military XP gains +growth potential), Industrious/Financial (Huayna Capac, also has a good UU), Organized/Charismatic (Napoleon, great all around warmonger), Industrious/Organized (Roosevelt, great all-arounder that can adapt well), Financial/Charismatic (Hannibal, all-arounder), Expansive/Charismatic (Washington, powerful warfarer with growth potential)

Ranked (by themselves, the best traits tend to do fine on their own, the worst usually need a combo or just plain suck)
1.) Financial -econ
2.) Expansive -war/growth
3.) Organized -econ/war/growth
4.) Industrious -growth
5.) Charismatic -war/growth
6.) Philosophical -econ
7.) Creative -growth/econ
8.) Aggressive -war
9.) Imperialistic -war/growth
10.) Spiritual -?
11.) Protective -war

As far as leaders go, I'm thoroughly convinced that Darius, not Huayna, is the absolute strongest civ in the game in the right hands. I've seen several examples of abusing Huayna's Quecha units and the abuse of the Industrious trait in general, but Darius has a stronger economy and beyond the Quecha rush stage is a much more powerful warfarer, and can support the most giant empires I've ever seen at any point in the game without going broke...it's crazy. Unless fail gold is really that reliable/powerful he'll outstrip the Incan by the time CoL rolls around just like anybody else.
 
Spiritual second worst trait?

Spiritual is the most difficult trait to use. You say it's only necessary to switch civics 3-6 times during a game. Playing optimally you can multiply that perhaps by a factor of ten. Synchronise whipping and switch between slavery + caste every 5 turns. After nationalism switch between that and rep every 10-15 turns. OR/pacifism is a good switch also.

Spiritualism gives your empire a flexibility no other trait comes close to. FIN, ORG and EXP are powerful traits. But none of these has the potential of spiritual when played right (which is very difficult to do).
 
Ranking traits has been done to death over the last ten years, but I'm bored...so some observations:

Aggressive: This trait screams "RUSH!" This trait supports "RUSH!" Cheap Barracks + your first promotion on the most common attacking units early game for free? Pumping units that can earn their 2nd upgrade for free earlier than any other civ? Pretty cool!

It would be a lot better if it worked on mounted units (as you observed). On higher levels you will either go with mounted or with siege, and if you have siege that free Combat I on your melee isn't all that important. Of course, it's decent wherever you have the opportunity to Axe-rush...

Philosophical:+100% GP points. To be honest, I put these following three traits last because I don't like them and haven't really tried to leverage them. I understand the extra GPP helps you get the first couple faster and like anything that can snowball, but I haven't been able to really play any maps where I successfully pulled off a GP farm with much success. I just tend to use wonders + Golden Ages and focus on free GP from techs to achieve this, and there's always Pacifism in the religion civic tree doing the same thing for cities with the religion.

If you can improve this, you will tech a lot faster. You don't always need a Great Person farm, often it's better to spread generation out over two or three cities, but Philosopohical is not tied to that. There are situations where you hardly build any wonders and have a small empire so Golden Ages won't be much use to you, and it's there that Philosophical will give you the extra turns needed to leverage your advantage. Pacifism is great - and Philosophical will get it for you even faster (through earlier Academy and/or bulbing).


Otherwise I think you make a pretty good explanation of the traits, except for ranking Spiritual as was already mentioned.
 
Your add-ons for traits are a bit strange, like what does exp do for "war"? ~~

Org might look good until we see how other traits help in creating a great merchant or 2 i.e. you can do that with Spi by switching into Caste more often, or Phi allows you getting those extra great peoples for gold.

Great merchant examples are really good to help understanding why Phi is considered top 3 by most, they are great people cos they are the most powerful "unit" in Civ4.

It's not super obvious maybe, like building cottages and seeing 1 extra commerce with Fin, but looking further into everything they can do is very much recommended.
 
Financial: due to how it boosts so many different sources of commerce, the trait almost applies as a net 50% economy bonus (that slowly slides down to about 20% or less later) over a civ without it all things considered.
Fin gets nowhere near 50% boost in commerce, let alone a 50% boost to your economy (better described as including non commerce science/gold/culture, GPP, hammers and excess food), and if you have cottaged the bejeesus out of absolutely everything to maximise the trait then you will have limited production potential as a result. There's no argument about it not being a very powerful trait, but it is very easy to overrate due to how easy it is to make use of compared to the others.
I rack up maybe 3-6 total for a whole game, ever, and a lot of that is dependent on how far it goes and the timing of golden ages among other things
Spiritual isn't about how many turns of anarchy it saves you from if you played normally, its about how you can use and abuse civic and religion swaps when you don't have to worry about anarchy at all.

Spiritual offers a big box of tricks (civic cycling, diplomacy manipulations) but has the major drawback of you needing to recognise what, where and when you can make good use of it, which isn't easy, particularly for newer players. The cheap temples are pretty nice too, especially for when the Apocolyptic Palace comes into play, or for culture wins.
 
The cheap temples are pretty nice too, especially for when the Apocolyptic Palace comes into play
Yes, when the Apocolyptic resolution "turn all AP temples into ICBMs" passes, you'll be ready. :lol:

(I think you meant Apostolic Palace.)

Spoiler :
And yes, I know I was talking about the Apocalyptic Palace.
 
On Spiritual:
For example, if you have the Pyramids you can run Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System and Pacifism. You decide you want to build an army at short notice. You can switch to Police State, Slavery, Theocracy, and Feudalism for five turns, and then once you've whipped out your new army, you switch back to the economic civics while you wait for the whip anger to subside.
 
Especially if you've prebuilt units. Amazing what you can produce in a few turns.
 
Personally, since I rarely play Deity, Spiritual's ceiling is a bit lost on me, I use alot of advantages it gives to a reasonable degree (no-anarchy swaps, cheap AP temples, early caste GPP generation alternating with whipping units, Diplomatic manipulation), but the micro of switching every 5 turns for a 1000 years and timing your gameplan accordingly is simply not necessary below Deity besides the most punishing of maps.

Taking that into account, I would still rank Spiritual as a tier 1 trait, it basically is only poor if you are Isolated, and barring that, for me it is right alongside Philo, Financial and Creative (and not because it helps culture victories a bit, to me it's a warmonger trait... get the most powerful sites early, hit early library, and tech for an early rush). Industrious can be abused so very very unfairly on Immortal thanks to failgold, it should rank up there as well. I don't think Industrious is as strong on Deity though, in fact, barring specific starts that can really leverage it, I would rank it below Expansive and Charismatic for that difficulty level.
 
Yes, when the Apocolyptic resolution "turn all AP temples into ICBMs" passes, you'll be ready. :lol:

(I think you meant Apostolic Palace.)

Spoiler :
And yes, I know I was talking about the Apocalyptic Palace.
I prefer to call it Apocolyptic because it can end the world much more quickly and with far less effort than nukes, and because it poses a far, far greater threat to players that take their eyes off the ball for a while :p
 
I never bought the "PHI/IND combo is OP" line of thinking. Our evidence for that is poor at best, a relic from before the devs saw what the really good players could do.

We're supposed to believe that such a combo could compete with PHI/FIN and redcoats, or FIN/IND and the most broken SP UU, quechas?

Civs are not balanced, nor close to balanced, in the first place. Neither are traits. What evidence leads anybody to the conclusion that, absent other factors, IND/PHI are necessarily imbalanced? Why should we care if it is, when skirmishers, war chariots, immortals and praetorians are allowed alongside panzers and navy seals despite most of the former also having better trait combinations available?

PHI is a little more consistent than IND. Fail gold on just the 50% isn't amazing and while forges are certainly excellent, they're later than stuff like granaries and libraries, with variable utility in :) depending on resource luck. Universities are later still (sometimes), but PHI makes them more viable as buildings plus confers the GPP advantage very fast and helps open some tech window timings that are otherwise not available.

It would be a lot better if it worked on mounted units (as you observed). On higher levels you will either go with mounted or with siege, and if you have siege that free Combat I on your melee isn't all that important. Of course, it's decent wherever you have the opportunity to Axe-rush...

AGG isn't well-tuned for high level SP, but it's tailor-made to help win wars at tech parity.

- If neither side has feudalism/theocracy available and running, the trait offers a counter promotion that others can't easily reach which across a 10 unit engage is a big swing in victory odds.
- Similarly, drafted units can gain access to counter-promotions with barracks and 1 xp civic
- Going into medieval times, AGG can trivially get formation on pikes out of the gate
- Units can similarly access the amphibious promotion very early in the game with 2 promotions, allowing effective naval forking via amphibious assault. When we're not talking AIs that can afford the :hammers: for 5-10 units all over the place, the prospect of having 5 galleons loaded with amphibious units, even junk like maces, is terrifying. Whatever you don't defend...burns, and they won't lose much :hammers: taking them.
- There are a number of pretty large swings with CR melee attacking CG archery units where the extra 10% makes a >10-15% victory odd difference due to pushing str higher by just enough.

Aggressive would be extremely hard to deal with if it benefitted mounted, which gets higher initial XP and high base strength. Combat 4 HA could beat unpromoted or non-combat maces, combat 4 knights are a problem for stock pikes. If such a nation had access to noooobiphants they'd be fighting with borderline uncounterable units until mid renaissance, 10.4 strength units in the BCs without bulb strats or special investment, just happening to get ivory. I'm guessing such is the reason mounted didn't get the bonus.
 
I think philo/ind would be fun to use but probably not effective right when you start out learning. I prefer spirit/philo with Ghandi the Nuke Master myself.

But philo/ind wouldn't be that problematic I feel however it could be just to big of a early swing with both. Granted without a uu or ub in the discussion it is kinda misleading. I think england is nice to play with fin/philo + coats.
 
Yes. Ind/Phi is the obvious choice for OCC. The two traits are also each two first rank choices for a cultural victory, even leaving aside the synergy. I think if a combination is a clear first rank contender for two different game styles it's reputation for being overpowered is probably deserved.
A couple of Deity players trying it out and reporting that it's not as good as expected might change my mind on that.
 
1) Expansive, Industrial

2) Creative, Financial

3) Charismatic, Imperialistic, Organized, Philosophical, Spiritual

4) Aggressive

5) Protective
 
How did expansive get so many fans ;)
Yup it's good, but we are talking about saving hammers on 60h buildings and getting a bit faster workers. Ranking that above Paci (including "Reli spread") from day 1 + relative easy Oxford if needed i dunno ~~

With Ind / Phi we would have to look at traits only, UUs are different and we all know that war chariots or Qs can win games alone nothing new there so should not be included in discussing Ind / Phi.

There would be nothing bad about having such a leader.
Their idea to not include one..well it's not wrong, combo gets you out of every (deity) situation rather easily. Leaving UUs outside, getting GLH or Pyras and using your great merchant or Rep Phi scientists..it's just like you need nothing else, basically.
Stuff like Fin does not compare, and i guess that was on their mind :)
 
I put expansive in the "good, but not great" category. Basically mid-tier. I'm never unhappy to see Expansive, but it's rarely something that's going to be game-changing.
 
How did expansive get so many fans ;)
Yup it's good, but we are talking about saving hammers on 60h buildings and getting a bit faster workers. Ranking that above Paci (including "Reli spread") from day 1 + relative easy Oxford if needed i dunno ~~

With Ind / Phi we would have to look at traits only, UUs are different and we all know that war chariots or Qs can win games alone nothing new there so should not be included in discussing Ind / Phi.

There would be nothing bad about having such a leader.
Their idea to not include one..well it's not wrong, combo gets you out of every (deity) situation rather easily. Leaving UUs outside, getting GLH or Pyras and using your great merchant or Rep Phi scientists..it's just like you need nothing else, basically.
Stuff like Fin does not compare, and i guess that was on their mind :)


I personally believe you would have too talk about a uu for this discussion though. Sorry to disagree and all. But with the specific combination you could not give it out to a country of origin that had a early ancient/classic unit unless it was pretty crappy. Because the swing of both traits early game would be too much with a good early uu.

Case in point Rome. You have the closest thing to it and it is bonkers for them. Now granted I have not ventured into deity yet but imm and below Rome is just really why waste my time with a forgone conclusion. With caesar being ind parthenon isn't hard to grab and that + ub is 75% of spiritual. It would in that context with a way too strong classic unit be broke as shtuff. You snowball way, way too fast. Might not be capac level cause it takes around 2k- 2500 years to get going and not 500 (I play marathon). But the thing is your gpp generation is really good and any of the mids oracle, or lighthouse is yours with ind.

Where it wouldn't be broken I believe would be in a country with a middle ages or medieval unit like Elizabeth as a template. You get 2 really strong skills but you can't spiral outta control cause your great uu is not available from the get go. In that context you could have a strong leader and a good choice but not a Capac level filth.
 
Well we are back to difficulty level :)
If i play deity - and only deity - i say Ind + Phi = best trait combo.

Forget UUs, forget Axe rushes on Emperor..
when you are on deity..best trait combo for winning *all* maps.

I dare saying i have enuf experience with random deity maps.
How will we judge that on random diffs..no idea, not possible.

Here's one for Lymo..girls can drink too, i had too much wine today uuugh.
 
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