Philosophical or Industrious?

[odin1981]

Well we are back to difficulty level
If i play deity - and only deity - i say Ind + Phi = best trait combo.

Forget UUs, forget Axe rushes on Emperor..
when you are on deity..best trait combo for winning *all* maps.

I dare saying i have enuf experience with random deity maps.
How will we judge that on random diffs..no idea, not possible.

Here's one for Lymo..girls can drink too, i had too much wine today uuugh.

Deity just doesn't interest me atm. If I get that tired off imm that quick I might aim to take it down once with a non Capac leader. But deity doesn't really interest me. Emperor is cool but it took me 2 weeks to come to the conclusion that the ai just techs too slow.

I hate Pangea with a passion though utter newb sauce map. And I refuse to play on a smaller than large map but prefer huge. I prefer continents, sushi or hemispheres with 3 massive main continents, random islands, and 14 ai. I like events/huts but understand huts are a no go at deity. I don't like normal prefer marathon or epic. Because techs shouldn't be done before a unit non whipped is produced. So I have some standards that would be far outside of the box of the "norm" around here.

But I believe from recent personal exp up the difficulty levels. The big thing that has to be understood is the difficulty level of the player. The advice recieved from deity only players is all the same basic boring strat that you really have to use for that level. I know up till emperor level you can pursue the religion first tech (buddhist) and then go the standard Agrwh/AHbwPwriMath/currency as needed by starting location chain.

At Emp I found you cannot even with a 2x gold(gem) start can no longer beat the ai to the first 3 religions but you can snap the next 3 up no problem and screw divine might cause it sucks. So it becomes a huge deal at emp and above to factor in what is possible (i try to personally fit in Masonry somewhere after first 5 though).

So difficulty to me at least plays a huge role in what is possible (monarch and below who cares you can do it all faster than all but maybe Mansa and I have done this so I know). And I think that is huge for scope in advice and how people ask for help.

I am really in love with Ghandi though so he will be my first choice to take down deity probably though. Him or Elizabeth I don't know if I must have fin for teching on deity.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

PHI/IND had no consensus being "OP" even amongst deity players.

I find it hard to believe it would outperform FIN/ORG with immortals or FIN/IND with Quechas on average if you dumped a weak UU on it. I'm not sure it even needs a weak UU constraint.

The reason is that I can't see IND *consistently* outperforming alternative traits on a game to game basis across many map scripts.

Huge maps/slow game speeds skew the equation a ton, especially marathon which actually alters relative unit costs outright (2x unit cost, 3x other stuff). On these speeds you can really milk promotions, healing, and casualty trades and the AI can't rebuild as quickly relative to healing/movement, to the point where you can probably secure winning position land in medieval with some consistency even at high levels, without the engineering bulb by skipping fishing trick.

 

[Macksideshow]

Definitely PHI imho.

Fail gold's unpredictable return date is too big a draw back to push IND past PHI for me. Perhaps I could take better notice of typical wonder completion date ranges though. I think I prefer IND's improved ability to target a critical early wonder. Although I accept fail gold is useful and I use it, it's not like IND is required to leverage fail gold, it just improves it a bit.

PHI's ability to bring the first 2 - 3 GPs earlier (especially the first one) is a good boost to my play style. It allows me to earlier establish a beaker rate base that keeps me at the tech trading table so I can then start looking at other objectives. I believe this makes a appreciable reduction to my win dates.

PHI's weakness is low food surplus maps. I will regen plains cow starts so at least my capital has a decent food surplus. Low food maps can be a problem for PHI though.

 

[Dewii]

Definitely PHI imho.
Fail gold's unpredictable return date is too big a draw back to push IND past PHI for me.

Would it be worth using National Wonders? (Moai or Forbidden Palace spring to mind as wonders where the failgold in cities that don't complete it might be worth not getting the wonder immediately.)

 

[elitetroops]

Would it be worth using National Wonders? (Moai or Forbidden Palace spring to mind as wonders where the failgold in cities that don't complete it might be worth not getting the wonder immediately.)

Failgolding National wonders can be very powerful. Moai is one common wonder. Grabbing some failgold from NE/HE can also be viable, if you aren't going into GP/military producing mode immediately.

Later in the game Hermitage can get you a ton of failgold. It's a wonder you probably wouldn't normally build, but it's very cheap and if you have enough cities to put failgold into it, it's well worth the wasted hammers. Since you don't need the wonder itself, you can complete it whenever it is the most convenient for your gold reserves.

Cool thing with failgolding National wonders is that you can even do it multiple times. If you have a ton of hammer invested into Hermitage across the nation and need the gold, you complete it in some crappy border city, gift the city away, and now you can start putting failgold hammers into the wonder again.

 

[Macksideshow]

Failgolding National wonders can be very powerful. Moai is one common wonder. Grabbing some failgold from NE/HE can also be viable, if you aren't going into GP/military producing mode immediately.

Later in the game Hermitage can get you a ton of failgold. It's a wonder you probably wouldn't normally build, but it's very cheap and if you have enough cities to put failgold into it, it's well worth the wasted hammers. Since you don't need the wonder itself, you can complete it whenever it is the most convenient for your gold reserves.

Cool thing with failgolding National wonders is that you can even do it multiple times. If you have a ton of hammer invested into Hermitage across the nation and need the gold, you complete it in some crappy border city, gift the city away, and now you can start putting failgold hammers into the wonder again.

Yes, it can certainly be done, as elitetroops has outlined. The thing is you are either delaying a NW you do want or building a NW you don't. One can always build wealth, granted it isn't as hammer efficient but it is instantly available and doesn't have any other costs than the opportunity cost of those hammers.

Maybe I don't get it as I am not a IND player and I only really use fail gold early before wealth and research can actually be built.

 

[MyOtherName]

This isn't just an IND thing -- it applies to resource accelerated wonders as well.

If you have a choice between 100 now and 200 later, the former is only a good choice if you actually have something *valuable* to do with the gold between now and later.

If the thing you're going to do with the gold only amounts to a 50 value between now and later, then later you'll wish you had made the other choice and came out 50 ahead.

 

[elitetroops]

Yes, it can certainly be done, as elitetroops has outlined. The thing is you are either delaying a NW you do want or building a NW you don't. One can always build wealth, granted it isn't as hammer efficient but it is instantly available and doesn't have any other costs than the opportunity cost of those hammers.

Maybe I don't get it as I am not a IND player and I only really use fail gold early before wealth and research can actually be built.

A majority of your failgold hammers should come from chops and whip overflow, which cannot be used for building wealth.

Let's say you have 10 cities that will be building wealth the next 10 turns. Every city has one forest left. You have just whipped a forge in all of them and have an average of 38 overflow hammers. Average natural production in the cities is 16 hammers/city. You are IND and have marble.

Build wealth 10 turns gives you 10*10*16*1.25 = 2000.

If you instead have one of the cities building Hermitage every turn and a chop coming in on that turn (or a previous turn, hammers are stored while building wealth), each city would store (38+30+16)*2.75 = 231 hammers into Hermitage and build wealth the other 9 turns. So by the end of the 10 turns you have produced 9*10*15*1.25 = 1800 gold by building wealth and have 2310 hammers stored in Hermitage across 10 cities. Complete it in one of them, for example with another chop, and you get 2079 fail gold from the other 9 cities. 1800 + 2079 = 3879

The immediate cost of this failgolding process was only 200 gold over 10 turns, while the overall gold you earned nearly doubled. Throwing away 300 hammers on a useless wonder is nothing in comparison to the amount of failgold you can get.

 

[Macksideshow]

A majority of your failgold hammers should come from chops and whip overflow, which cannot be used for building wealth.

Let's say you have 10 cities that will be building wealth the next 10 turns. Every city has one forest left. You have just whipped a forge in all of them and have an average of 38 overflow hammers. Average natural production in the cities is 16 hammers/city. You are IND and have marble.

Build wealth 10 turns gives you 10*10*16*1.25 = 2000.

If you instead have one of the cities building Hermitage every turn and a chop coming in on that turn (or a previous turn, hammers are stored while building wealth), each city would store (38+30+16)*2.75 = 231 hammers into Hermitage and build wealth the other 9 turns. So by the end of the 10 turns you have produced 9*10*15*1.25 = 1800 gold by building wealth and have 2310 hammers stored in Hermitage across 10 cities. Complete it in one of them, for example with another chop, and you get 2079 fail gold from the other 9 cities. 1800 + 2079 = 3879

The immediate cost of this failgolding process was only 200 gold over 10 turns, while the overall gold you earned nearly doubled. Throwing away 300 hammers on a useless wonder is nothing in comparison to the amount of failgold you can get.

Good point, I overlooked that aspect of the mechanics, a good analysis and a nice tactic to leverage fail gold.

Do I understand that the fail gold case expends an additional 11 trees and 38*10 hammers of whip overflow for an additional 1879 gold over the build wealth case?

My simplified analysis is that IND is producing an additional 378 gold vs. non IND (say PHI) instead. ie: (38+30+16)*2.25 * 9 failgold instead of (38+30+16) * 2.75 * 9

It is simplified as IND also gets half price forges which does synergise well with this strategy. How do I un-simplify this?

 

[elitetroops]

Yes, 10*38 overflow hammers and 10 or 11 forests, depending on if you complete it with a chop or by some other way, for 1879 gold. Of course in many parts of the game you will want to use forests and whip overflow for more urgent items, but in longer games there usually comes a time when turning remaining forests into 82 gold each is a very attractive option (assuming IND).

It is also correct that IND does not net you very much in that example. Failgolding can be almost as efficient also for non IND civs. IND makes more of a difference in the early game when you have less multipliers.

Then there is also the OR multiplier, which you can get on failgold but not on wealth. Most useful in the early game as well.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

These numbers show that IND is pretty useful, but what they aren't doing is showing that it necessarily beats traits like FIN, ORG for money or others for utility. National wonder fail gold is an important boost, but it's delayed compared to other traits and is a burst-resource, IE once you do complete that wonder there's extra cost to be able to use it again, else you wait.

Nobody is denying that IND is solid, it's a good trait. The issue is claiming its "synergy" with PHI is so powerful that it necessarily outperforms other trade combinations regardless of context.

 

[Fippy]

Oh come on TmiT, Ind leaves Org faaar behind in..everything

 

[Izuul]

My issue with ORG has always been that it doesn't do much to get you into a winning position. The benefits don't really kick in until after your civ is large, and more often that not you can win from a position like that with or without ORG.

FIN can be great early in many situations.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oh come on TmiT, Ind leaves Org faaar behind in..everything

Even if that is true, and I feel it generally is as well, the case hasn't actually been made here.

Org can out scale ind on big maps. Normally it won't, though maybe it's better at "win harder".

What raw utility are we getting from this trait combo that far out strips others? The "synergy" of extra gpp from a couple wonders, in those times where you otherwise wouldn't get said wonders?

I've seen very little addressing what is actually op there.

 

[nate46]

org saves you 1 g/t on your 2nd city, and 4 g/t once you have about 5 cities and slavery. Plus cheaper lighthouses (and by extension, cheaper great lighthouse). So its not a useless trait before you get 10 cities. Worse than financial, but personally i rate it at about the same tier as ind/phi...

and Darius's Org/Fin is just an absurd trait combo... You can build the great lighthouse 30h cheaper, followed by cheap lighthouses combined with lower maintenance and financial coast tiles to work. You don't even need to build workers for your cities, just whip a lighthouse on any coast anywhere, and you've got a profitable city. Ind/Phi has nothing on that.

I still think imp is a tier 1 trait. you guys undervalue the early turns it saves. It can easily save you 8 very early turns if you know what you're doing... saves way more turns than exp. Plus the great generals are helpful all game.

 

[Windsor]

I've experimented a bit with the Phi/Ind-combo and while the synergy is obvious (and you do pair two top-tier traits) it's not so much as to make a Civ instantly overpowered or dominate all strategic decisions in the game.

I do however understand why Firaxis didn't dare to include the traits because of the potential that such a combo would be overpowered. Sure other elements in the game turned out to be even more powerful, but the Phi/Ind combo is so easy to see.

And of course, if the combo existed most noble-players would probably just overbuild wonders even more

 

[Fippy]

I've seen very little addressing what is actually op there.

Not sure why you are persistent on this topic, mixing 2 traits will not result in overpowered. But there's a synergy that's not there with other trait combos in that form, on top of them both being among the very best traits on their own.

Yup with things like war chariots in Civ, Ind + Phi would have it's place as well.
But discussing that is tiring, they had their valid reasons for not putting this combo in, but missed balancing other parts of the game.

 

[odin1981]

Even if that is true, and I feel it generally is as well, the case hasn't actually been made here.

Org can out scale ind on big maps. Normally it won't, though maybe it's better at "win harder".

What raw utility are we getting from this trait combo that far out strips others? The "synergy" of extra gpp from a couple wonders, in those times where you otherwise wouldn't get said wonders?

I've seen very little addressing what is actually op there.

I believe the ease at which it can transition is what is op with the combo. Say you have a multi continent map and when you meet the others you run in to the 20-30 city and 1-2 vassal Cathy, burger king, or whoever. You know domination is out right then and there but because you have ind/phi you are auto tracked into cultural or ap religion pretty easy.

 

[Powerfaker]

There are 11 traits. That means 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=55 possible combo's. There are 52 leaders, each with a different trait combo.
That leaves 3 combo's unassigned. These are

Phi / Ind
Cre / Cha
Org / Pro

These 3 look rather random to me. Nobody cares for Org+Pro I think and Fin is completely covered. So you cannot say they picked the strongest combo's to leave out.

I agree though Phi / Ind would have been a great combo. I would have liked Cre / Cha too by the way.

When it comes to Phi versus Ind my vote goes to Phi

Phi:
- Those first GP's come so much sooner/easier with Phi. Food barren or not if you need them you can get them. And lifesavers they are if you are in tech trouble.
- On top of that rapid unis + Oxford, particularly when Phi bonus is combined with a GA.

Ind:
- Ind requires wonderbuilding, which is a luxury you frequently don't have. If you can you are not in trouble apparently? There are circumstances where a wonder is a lifesaver and Ind the decisive factor of course, but that's exceptional rather than common. (Also I'm a bit paranoia about the AI 'mysteriously knowing' they should start working on wonders earlier when you are Ind)
- The forge is among the best buildings to have a build bonus on. This alone is not hood enough to beat Phi though.

I've never tried the multiple-wonder-failgold thing. That will be added on my to-do list.......

 

[Macksideshow]

The forge is a great building to have the bonus on. This itself could be a better boost than the increased fail gold IND supplies. Not being an IND player, I've never really had that.

I always assumed that PHI/IND was not used due to being OP at lower levels where one can go build almost every wonder. At higher difficulties where you have to pick one or two and focus on them if you want to get any wonders at all PHI/IND is not particularly OP.

As Powerfaker pointed out, PHI/IND is not the only combo not used but it does seem an intentional omission since it would be cool to have that synergy.