[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Leathaface]

I wouldn‘t rely too much on the potential that GS buffs coastal cities. It might be something simple as: „you can build offshore wind farms, the best power source in the game!!!“ and „coastal trade routes are mote efficient now!!!“

And don‘t forget rising sea levels, which makes coastal cities less attractive.

If you played Civ V you might remember how powerful sea trade routes were, they were much better than land trade routes. I heard GS will make sea trade routes as powerful as they were in Civ V.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Depending on who my neighbors are, I think I'd be taking advantage of the Cothon's production bonus to navy instead of to settlers anyhow.

 

[Ziad]

I wouldn‘t rely too much on the potential that GS buffs coastal cities. It might be something simple as: „you can build offshore wind farms, the best power source in the game!!!“ and „coastal trade routes are mote efficient now!!!“

And don‘t forget rising sea levels, which makes coastal cities less attractive.

Well it's up to double trade route yields ( I think it's calculated based on number of water vs land tiles traveled on), commercial city states providing bonuses to Harbor buildings, housing improvement on water, power water improvement, Liang fishery bonus (this one trivial though) and a few others we haven't learned of yet.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I wouldn‘t rely too much on the potential that GS buffs coastal cities. It might be something simple as: „you can build offshore wind farms, the best power source in the game!!!“ and „coastal trade routes are mote efficient now!!!“

And don‘t forget rising sea levels, which makes coastal cities less attractive.

This is true, but you would hope given the coastal cities weakness to the main feature of the expansion, they would be given some recompense.

My assumption is that coastal trades are going to be (potentially significantly) more lucrative than land based ones. So you can risk going coastal for better yields. In such a scenario, Didos extra trade routes and propensity/volume of coastal Civs would make her a trading powerhouse

We might find out tomorrow!

 

[Ziad]

I just realized Phoenicia's propensity towards wide empires will make Rome its friend.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I just realized Phoenicia's propensity towards wide empires will make Rome its friend.

And she will be Haralds unrequited love...

 

[Ziad]

And she will be Haralds unrequited love...

Tsundere queen.

 

[Siptah]

This is true, but you would hope given the coastal cities weakness to the main feature of the expansion, they would be given some recompense.

My assumption is that coastal trades are going to be (potentially significantly) more lucrative than land based ones. So you can risk going coastal for better yields. In such a scenario, Didos extra trade routes and propensity/volume of coastal Civs would make her a trading powerhouse

We might find out tomorrow!

Don't get me wrong, I do hope coastal cities get buffed (or at least compensated), I just hope that yields per tiles don't change, as that could easily make coastal cities too strong.

Increasing naval trade routes efficiency is a good start, as it gives harbors and coastal cities a boost (until railroads come around which make land routes on par if you invest in it). However, naval trade routes don't build roads, so you will want to send a few land routes to your neighbors/CS at some point. And don't forget that I don't need a lot of coastal cities for a trader to embark as this can be done via a single harbor or coastal city.

@Ziad Commercial CS boosting harbors is indeed nice and very much welcome, but it doesn't boost coastal cities per se, it boost harbors and I don't need a coastal city for a harbor. As to housing, it isn't that important in my games. So I really hope they have something up in their sleeve besides better trade routes (which should have been vanilla). But my comment above was meant to say don't expect too much a buff, as it might not happen.

 

[Kibikus]

Bonus production towards building your Government Plaza is good

Plus having your cluster of top cities, then moving your capital to another continent and using Colonial policy cards to get +25% gold and +10 production in your original cities is top notch.

Where did you see that bonus production? It's 50% bonus production to other districts in the city, AFTER you have a Government Plaza.
The Colonial policy card thing is still up in the air, as it says "original capital" on the card right now.

Well it's up to double trade route yields ( I think it's calculated based on number of water vs land tiles traveled on), commercial city states providing bonuses to Harbor buildings, housing improvement on water, power water improvement, Liang fishery bonus (this one trivial though) and a few others we haven't learned of yet.

None of those are exclusive to Phoenicia, and none of them require you to actually settle on the coast. In fact, pretty much none of the naval focused civs require you to settle on the coast to use their abilites, except Indonesia, who at least gets the faith for first pantheon, and some district adjacency so it's not too bad to have districts along the coast.

With Phoenicia you are incentivized to also settle on the coast, but then you get nothing for it. Give me some extra science for trade routes that start in a coastal city, or extra gold when you trade between two Phoenician cities on the coast via water (then the Bireme might be useful), or something like that.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Georgia's second main problem is that it was an overplayed joke that was turned into a civ most didn't want in the game

<snip>

And yet, if it weren't essentially a meme in the first place, I (and many others) probably would have been less bothered by it's inclusion.

I've become a big fan of Georgia, and definitely prefer to play as them over any other civ.

One issue they had was their unique unit was on a leaf tech, which has now been fixed.

Another issue was that walls, other than ancient walls, weren't needed to defend against the AI. If anything, that's probably more true as of GS, since now wall strength is doubled. Unless there's some change to siege warfare that we don't know about.

The double envoys to City States should be more useful post GS if city states survive longer, which means more gold (with Georgia, the gold per envoy card is a pretty good diplomatic card option) and more favour.

Overall, Georgia should be more fun to play as of GS.

Phoenicia is probably the new civ in GS I'd be most inclined to gravitate to. I rely on trade as the backbone of my economy, so more trade routes is appealing to me. Plus defending a long snakey civ stretched out along a coastline sounds like it could be interesting if you're attacked by an inland neighbour. I don't find conquering the AI fun, but playing peacefully while defending against neighbouring aggressors I do enjoy, and sticking to the coast as Phoenicia could create an oddly and inefficiently shaped empire.

Speaking of which, one small issue for Phoenicia is that, with the new power system, there will be even more of an advantage to having a circular empire. Obviously, Phoenicia can build inland cities as easily as anyone. So, a bit like Canada with its modest tundra boost, just because Phoenicia gets a benefit to coastline doesn't mean you should stick to the coast. Most efficient play will likely be to build a normal empire, for which the coasts are just a little stronger. More interesting play will likely be to build long, stretched out coastal empires.

 

[Ziad]

With Phoenicia you are incentivized to also settle on the coast, but then you get nothing for it. Give me some extra science for trade routes that start in a coastal city, or extra gold when you trade between two Phoenician cities on the coast via water (then the Bireme might be useful), or something like that.

Why do you need extra yields? You'll have more early trade routes than anyone else in the game, so by the time extra yields surpass raw yields from trade route count you would still have more trade routes than anyone else as you have more cities and get those lighthouses online faster than anyone else.

Granted, I would have liked bonus yields myself. I assume it was a balance issue.

@Ziad Commercial CS boosting harbors is indeed nice and very much welcome, but it doesn't boost coastal cities per se, it boost harbors and I don't need a coastal city for a harbor. As to housing, it isn't that important in my games. So I really hope they have something up in their sleeve besides better trade routes (which should have been vanilla). But my comment above was meant to say don't expect too much a buff, as it might not happen.

The impact of a Harbor on your city is directly proportional to how many sea tiles you use. As such Harbors are typically pretty low priority to any civilization that does not directly settle on coast. The coastal trade routes, even when buffed, won't make up for a civilization's inability to exploit it efficiently, and ultimately defend it. This is where naval civilizations will shine.

So while someone may eventually build a harbor, it comes too late.

 

[Ziad]

None of those are exclusive to Phoenicia, and none of them require you to actually settle on the coast. In fact, pretty much none of the naval focused civs require you to settle on the coast to use their abilites, except Indonesia, who at least gets the faith for first pantheon, and some district adjacency so it's not too bad to have districts along the coast.

This line of thinking is like saying Shaka's unique isn't significant because armies aren't exclusive, or Rome's unique isn't significant because anyone can instantly buy monuments 50 turns into the game.

Exclusivity isn't the only measure of worth. The capacity to leverage your abilities plays an arguably more important role. While other civilizations can settle on coast, they all do so less efficiently with a far weaker navy.

The best part is that because of the lack of explicit yield benefits from features, you can still settle non-coastal cities and still have a powerful game as you aren't gimped. Compare that to Indonesia which has no access to its UI (which is arguably the core of its power) if it dares settle inland.

 

[Disgustipated]

Just realized something, with another tier of governments in the future era, does that mean we have another government building for tier 4? So does Phoenicia actually get +5 trade routes?

 

[Ziad]

Just realized something, with another tier of governments in the future era, does that mean we have another government building for tier 4? So does Phoenicia actually get +5 trade routes?

Good point.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Just realized something, with another tier of governments in the future era, does that mean we have another government building for tier 4? So does Phoenicia actually get +5 trade routes?

I was just going to post this... On the other hand we don't have any district types containing 4 buildings yet either...

 

[IvoryPavane]

I was just going to post this... On the other hand we don't have any district types containing 4 buildings yet either...

Another potential modder bonus if that’s true

 

[pgm123]

@Ziad Commercial CS boosting harbors is indeed nice and very much welcome, but it doesn't boost coastal cities per se, it boost harbors and I don't need a coastal city for a harbor. As to housing, it isn't that important in my games. So I really hope they have something up in their sleeve besides better trade routes (which should have been vanilla). But my comment above was meant to say don't expect too much a buff, as it might not happen.

While true, if you're building the harbor, it's better to have an adjacent City Center.

I still find it pretty annoying that Celestial Navigation deadends. It should be a prerequisite for something (e.g. mathematics). I wonder if people would have such a problem with it if it was a mandatory stop.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

With G&S we would get 9 new buildings. If the 3 types of power plants count we already know all 9 of them, but they are not specifically "new". So if the power plants are not considered within the 9 new buildings then we don't know 3 of the new buildings, possibly 4th tier government buildings.

 

[Ziad]

I still find it pretty annoying that Celestial Navigation deadends. It should be a prerequisite for something (e.g. mathematics). I wonder if people would have such a problem with it if it was a mandatory stop.

It's definitely true, but in practice you will likely pick up easy Free Inquiry with Phoenicia (You do not need monumentalism) which will more than make up for any detours you take.

They had it in the video even so it's clearly on their radar in terms of balancing. It's the most optimal path with Phoenicia.

 

[Siptah]

While true, if you're building the harbor, it's better to have an adjacent City Center.

I still find it pretty annoying that Celestial Navigation deadends. It should be a prerequisite for something (e.g. mathematics). I wonder if people would have such a problem with it if it was a mandatory stop.

Yes, triangles ftw.