[GS] Phoenicia Uniques Predictions

What will Phoenicia's uniques include?

  • Gold and Production from trade routes, districts, or luxury resources

    Votes: 37 25.0%
  • Science from trade routes, districts, or luxury resources

    Votes: 51 34.5%
  • Diplomatic favor from trade routes, districts, or luxury resources

    Votes: 29 19.6%
  • Heavy coastal bias with unique propensity to settle on coast. Maybe even mandatory.

    Votes: 88 59.5%
  • Cothon will be a unique city center that essentially replaces Harbor

    Votes: 22 14.9%
  • Cothon will be a Harbor or Canal replacement

    Votes: 100 67.6%
  • Unique Elephant with offensive bonuses

    Votes: 25 16.9%
  • Unique Trireme with possible coastal settling or exploration bonuses

    Votes: 75 50.7%
  • Reduction to gold and/or faith costs of purchasing units

    Votes: 13 8.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 16 10.8%

  • Total voters
    148

Ziad

Emperor
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
1,896
Location
Lebanon
We've seen the Maori with their fascinating start and bias towards features and defensive nature. Hungary promotes city state engagement and district planning. Canada encourages participation in world affairs through its bonuses to emergencies. The Inca construct mountainous cities with unbeatable tile yields and food from trade routes. Mali will have you swimming in gold from trade routes and tiles. Sweden brings an amazing cultural game with a unique addition of congress events. The Ottomans introduce a unique governor that helps them maintain relations with the world as they dominate the world with their siege engines and Janissaries.

And now here we are a few days away from seeing Phoenicia proper return to the Civilization series as the final unique civilization of Gathering Storm. What do you predict they'll bring to the table? What will set them apart?

Well... who were the Phoenicians? Why do we know so little about them overall? Well they were notoriously secretive to begin with, later invading civilizations suppressed what little remained. It didn't help that there has been a historic bias against the Phoenicians, in the early recordings of Greece and Rome, up to the 19th and 20th century. However there has been a shift in perspectives and a renewed interest in Phoenician accomplishments, and hopefully Civilization will help proliferate the greatness of their civilization even further.

So where was Phoenicia located?

Phoenicia was a thalassocratic Semitic-speaking Mediterranean civilization that originated in the Levant in the area of modern Lebanon. They were a civilization composed of city states, the most famous being Byblos, Tyre, Sidon, Arwad, Berytus, and of course, Carthage.

So what will they bring to the table?

Production and Gold

They were a practical people, ones who mostly concerned themselves with the sphere of action. They were shipbuilders, navigators, merchants, miners, metallurgists, dyers, and engineers. They monopolized many industries from silver, to tin, to the famed purple dye, the same dye that essentially cemented purple as the color of the formal and royal.

Will we see a civilization with heavy production based on luxuries and trade? Will they get bonus production from features, representing their industriousness and affinity to shipbuilding using the famed Cedars? Will they perhaps see bonuses to production from resources, or even coastal tiles? Will their unique District, the Cothon, confer production bonuses to sea resources or even all coastal tiles? Will it perhaps be through their international trade routes?

We already see Mali with many bonuses to gold generation via trade routes which might make Phoenicia redundant, unfortunate as it may be. Would we instead possibly see bonus gold from trade deals? Or perhaps we might see bonus gold on improved features? Maybe trade routes will indeed provide gold, but as a secondary bonus.

Science

Will trade routes instead be a primary source of science? Phoenicians after all were great pioneers of civilization, preparing the way for other great civilizations to arise like the Greeks and Romans. They vastly improved the writing system, making it practical for ease of use in both arts and industry. Their contributions to shipbuilding were almost unrivaled for their time, their techniques being appropriated and improved on even by their Roman rivals. Their innovations in navigation (particularly through the stars) saw them brave distances as far as past Britannia, and be the first to circumnavigate Africa at a time where people lived and died 30 miles from where they were born.

Phoenician Alphabet influence

Spoiler :

greek.png



Unique District

Speaking of which, their travels saw them founding colonies all over the Mediterranean coast, and while the Greeks were certainly more prolific in their localized ICS, the Phoenicians ultimately cast a wider net.

Will they possibly see bonuses to coastal settling, much like we have seen in the past? Will the Cothon be a replacement Harbor, or possibly even a replacement to the City Center (as a Docks replacement) to honor the thalassocracy? Will they perhaps be completely constrained to settling on coast or near a lake? The Phoenician cities after all were almost exclusively maritime.

Cothon:
Spoiler :

2016_carthago_01.jpg



Diplomacy

What about their neighbors? Will they take issue with nearby coastal settling? Phoenicians far preferred to engage in diplomacy where possible, and very rarely attempted to impose their influence on others. When faced with war, they almost always attempted to defuse the situation with gifts and tribute. If that failed, they backed down rather than face destruction only resisting when their identity as a people was at stake or when forced to fight against their sister city states. Doing so they managed to outlive almost all their temporary suzerains.

So will they see bonuses to diplomacy via trade? Will trade deals possibly provide bonus diplomatic favor, with maybe even a connection to how many amenities or unique luxuries they have? Will they perhaps gain loyalty bonuses when settling on coast to promote said coastal settling?

Military
As an independent people, they survived as a "civilization" for a thousand years, resisting the corrupting influences from the luxuries that brought down many great empires. Phoenicia was chief of the secondary powers for quite some time, secondary because of it being relatively unconcerned with conquest, and declining only because it faced overwhelming external pressures. Their prime locations whether on the Levant or the shores of North Africa which brought them great wealth and prosperity ultimately led to their downfall due to squabbling neighbors or an unyielding Rome. Their relatively small size led to a relatively small population, and to engage in warfare they frequently employed mercenaries.

Carthage in particular, the most militant of the city states, almost brought the fledgeling Roman empire on its knees with its mercenary armies led by the famous Hannibal. Will we see some mercenary bonuses, possibly allowing Phoenicia to purchase units at reduced cost? Or will it be more ambitious, with Phoenicia being capable of hiring other civilization's unique units to defend themselves against their unwitting rivals?

Will their unique unit be an elephant (with the ability to cross mountains :sleep:), or will it perhaps be the Trireme, a glaring omission from the early game roster? Will that Trireme perhaps be able to found cities on distant lands, expanding Phoenicia's ability to settle in the early game while defending itself?

Trireme:

Spoiler :

Greek_Galleys.jpg



Religion

Less spoken about however is just how religious the Phoenicians were. While they were practical, they were deeply religious, venerating the world around them. They built magnificent temples to their gods and goddesses. Unlike their contemporaries, they preferred to worship the peace of Mother Nature (with a particular affinity towards female deities) rather than worship gods of war. Even the relatively Militaristic Carthage which gave its deities some martial qualities still vastly preferred the trade of Melqart and the peace of Tanit.

Regardless, they had an impact on Religion that continues to this day. They are immortalized in the Bible as the "sinful" Canaanites, as the Jews and Phoenicians engaged in what amounted to religious warfare. Ultimately their religion in the Levant only subsided after they zealously embraced Christianity.

So will they perhaps have some minor religious bonuses? Perhaps they'll get bonus faith from sea resources? Maybe trade routes? Maybe bonuses to gold purchasing will extend to faith purchasing as well.

Maybe their reverence for Nature will represent itself in some environmental bonuses?


So what will Phoenicia bring? What will the final new civ and leader of Gathering Storm be?
 
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Based on that picture of a Cothon I think that they will have a buff canal replacement. In terms of almost only maritime cities, a good system would be that you have to have a certain number of coastal cities to found an inland one.
 
I think limiting to settling Coast/Lake is very possible, especially if the Cothon is a unique City Center (as I think it is) effectively making it both a Harbor and a Canal as well.

It could also be a Harbor placed on land next to coast which can also act as a Canal.
 
I agree that something related to coasts is likely, possibly even a restriction against settling elsewhere.

I also think that the civ being Phoenicia rather than Carthage as in past iterations suggests the dev team may do something related to Phoenicia being a conglomerate of independent city states rather than a unified empire. Possibly a change to how the loyalty system works for Phoenician cities.
 
Unlike their contemporaries, they preferred to worship the peace of Mother Nature (with a particular affinity towards female deities) rather than worship gods of war.
Ashtart was not the nicest goddess, being cognate with Ishtar/Inanna--you know, the one who tried to seduce Gilgamesh, then threw a temper tantrum until her daddy sent the Bull of Heaven against him when she didn't get her way. :p Also Melqart and Baal Hadad were both war gods. Perhaps you're thinking of the Anatolian Magna Mater mystery cult? Canaanite gods were not quite as capricious as their Mesopotamian counterparts, but they still were not exactly charming...

They are immortalized in the Bible as the "sinful" Canaanites (cause sex is bad)
...That's not what Jews (or most Christians) believe at all. I'd like to point out that there's an entire book of erotic poetry in the Hebrew Bible, and that the Mosaic law commands husbands to "know" their wives regularly. Also that the first command God gave humans was "be fruitful and multiply." Judaism and the Hebrew Bible are very much not anti-sex. The Bible condemns Tyre and Sidon for their decadence and their idolatry, not their sexual practices, and even then Phoenicia is a footnote compared to what the Prophets have to say about Babylon.

Ultimately their religion only subsided after they zealously embraced Christianity.
But only in the Levant. Hence Lebanon still having a large native Christian population such as the Maronites and Western Assyrians, whereas North Africa does not. Christianity was always somewhat lukewarm and never strictly orthodox in North Africa. :(
 
Ashtart was not the nicest goddess, being cognate with Ishtar/Inanna--you know, the one who tried to seduce Gilgamesh, then threw a temper tantrum until her daddy sent the Bull of Heaven against him when she didn't get her way. :p Also Melqart and Baal Hadad were both war gods. Perhaps you're thinking of the Anatolian Magna Mater mystery cult? Canaanite gods were not quite as capricious as their Mesopotamian counterparts, but they still were not exactly charming..

Well I said "preferred" :p

The point is that even the gods you listed had war only as secondary attributes. Astarte is probably the most militant though.

Wasn't Baal Hadad a Mesopotamian god anyway? It was syncretized I believe.


...That's not what Jews (or most Christians) believe at all.

I was being a bit hyperbolic tbh :p ... Still the Canaanites are pretty much vilified. Ask Jezebel

But only in the Levant. Hence Lebanon still having a large native Christian population such as the Maronites and Western Assyrians, whereas North Africa does not. Christianity was always somewhat lukewarm and never strictly orthodox in North Africa. :(

I was referring to the initial decline as opposed to the current situation but you are right about most of North Africa. As a Maronite myself I was probably projecting a bit lol
 
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It would be an interesting mechanic if they had a loyalty system more akin to a city state than a normal civ. It would simulate Phoenicia's propensity for diaspora and far flung colonies around the Mediterranean. Maybe Phoenician cities could have rock solid loyalty that scales down per number of Phoenician cities on the same continent? In that way, you could establish a colony on a new continent that was unimpeded by loyalty pressures from already established civs in the area.
 
Well I voted for the obvious trireme and then the Cothon being a harbor or canal replacement. The city center theory is interesting but I'm not so sure. Either way I think it will be built on flat land adjacent to the coast so it will either be a canal tile that can build ships like a harbor, or a harbor that you can move ships onto the land like a canal (which makes more sense).

I also hope they have some science bonuses to go along with the gold generation. I could see more gold for trade routes over the water, sort of like Mali's bonus for desert, or extra gold for every luxury in the origin city.
 
I'm just glad that we're likely not getting Elephants for what was an almost exclusively maritime civilization. The fact that it's Phoenicia in general and not Carthage specifically implies we won't have to be stuck with uncharacteristic mountain Elephants.
I could live with elephants if the Civ was called Carthage and only if Hannibal was the leader as his UU.

I'm partial to some science flavor seeing that we haven't gotten one in GS yet, unless you count the minor Sweden GS bonus and Maori free techs.
Yes, the two that I really thought would have major science bonuses, Sweden and Mali, don't have as much at all and are geared toward other things.
 
IF the Civ were 'Carthage' they could have some kind of military/mercenary or naval bonus, but it being 'Phoenicia' I don't see how they can NOT have a Trade/Gold emphasis, and primarily Sea Trade at that.

Given the evidence so far that they trying to introduce Alternative Starts (Maori) to GS, I would really, really like to see Phoenicia with a Civ as collection of City States mechanism.

Perhaps something like getting a Free Settler for every Sea Trade Route (which costs no population), but the city founded by that settler has to be on the coast and is 'semi-independent' in that while it contributes, say, some Gold, Culture and Religion to the Civ, you cannot control what it builds.

OR, rather than Prohibiting founding 'regular' cities except on the coast, how about Phoenician Cities founded on the coast get an automatic free Sea Trade Route with the city that the settler came from - but no Trade Route if it has to be traced over land.

Also think they might get, as part of the Trade/Gold emphasis, a Unique Resource in 'Tyrian Purple' dye.

IF they were to get a Science Bonus from alphabetical inventiveness, rather than a straight + X Science per Turn, how about they get a +50% Eureka for any Tech that a civ has that they don't have, when they have a Trade Route with one of that civ's cities.

Being that it's Phoenicia and not Carthage, no elephants or Numidian Cavalry or Hannibalic Manifestations, thank you . . .
 
100% the Cothon is a canal district, likely earlier than other civs similar to Inca and the tunnels. Will give boosts for trade routes that pass through.
 
Having them only able to found cities on the coast on nest to lakes would be an interesting mechanic, especially since they would get some powerful buff to go with it. Or maybe instead on prohibiting settling not on the coast, just give potent nerfs to cities that aren't connecting to the coast.
So basically, assuming the Cothon is an early canal district, you would be highly incentivized to either settle on the coast or one tile away, but with a Cothon connecting you directly to the sea. Maybe the buff to coastal cities would be a buff to trade routes, and maybe a Mali-like bonus of some free yields. As for the nerf to non-coast connected cities, I'm not sure what to do for that. Basically those cities would be vulnerable before they can be connected to the coast with a Cothon is there was a production nerf, so it would probably have to be something different.
 
For civ bonuses, I think they'll get:

Coastal cities get +1 culture per adjacent coast tile.
Coastal cities automatically get a trader and 1 trade route (replacing the trade route granted by hubs/harbor).
Trade routes get extra gold for each luxury resource in the origin city, and international trade routes gain additional science or culture from campus/theatre districts in the origin city.
I think they'll want to incentivize coastal settling but at the moment I don't think they'll go as far as forcing it.

Cothon: this one is tricky, at first I was leaning towards it being a canal replacement, but after @Laurana Kanan informed me that the unique district bug is fixed, I think it'll be a harbor replacement. Curious to see what they'll go for :)

Unique unit: I miss the trireme, I think it'll make a comeback, and it'll have a bonus to protecting trade routes from being pillaged, and have extra movement.

Dido's ability: The first city founded on a new continent grants an additional trade route, and gets a free trireme/naval melee unit.

I like the idea of mercenaries, I'd be happy if they go for it.

@Lord Lakely had a great design posted in the 8th first look thread.
 
100% the Cothon is a canal district, likely earlier than other civs similar to Inca and the tunnels. Will give boosts for trade routes that pass through.

Agreed, so far all districts only have one unique replacement, I don't see the Cothon being the odd one out (maybe that's just my OCD :p). Earlier canals could give Phoenicia a head start in dominating the world trade system

The Phoenicians were famed for their wealth and trade, I really want unique resources like Purple Dye from unique Great Merchants for an interesting flavour. Strong coastal bias and some sort of naval UU (Phoenicians had the strongest navy of the time). Maybe in an alts DLC we could get Hannibal and his elephants return.
 
Phoenician cities receive no/reduced loyalty pressure from both enemy and other Phoenician cities? *thinking*
I think we‘ll see this + coastal bonuses (maybe naval trade as well) balanced by an inability to produce later game units. Prohibiting to produce warriors and Slingers seems too harsh a penalty though, units would need to be really cheap to buy in that case.
 
I’d like to see the Cothon as a city centre replacement. Perhaps even a city project available to cities near the coast that upgrades a normal city into a Cothon so that there is flexibility for settling locations.

The addition of the dock graphic for early coastal cities is not needed imo unless they had plans for it beyond canal entrances.
 
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