[GS] Phoenicia Uniques Predictions

[PhoenicianGold]

Docks are in the City Center, so the Cothon could essentially just replace the City Center. It would essentially be a City Center with additional Harbor traits which allows you to construct both City Center and Harbor buildings in it. Phoenicians would be barred from constructing Harbor districts, and they must settle on Coast/Lake to gain the Cothon (or possibly be completely limited to Coast/Lake).

Ah I confused dock with shipyard. Although I think this even less likely. Again because of the adjacency bonus. And because uniques are generally more expressive; we haven't had a unique that's just a small circumstantial addition to your city center.

Also it looks like docks are automatically built, which although a design choice I disagree with suggests that the dock is not a building.

Also of all the civs to give a city center bonus, Phoenicia does not come to mind first.

Another hint (although this is VERY much a reach) is their discussion of Valetta in particular in the Ottoman stream which they frankly randomly brought up. Valetta allows you to purchase city center buildings with Faith. Valetta is in Malta, an island colonized by Phoenicians. See where I'm going with this? The synergy would be real.

You are a crazy person.

 

[Ziad]

Also of all the civs to give a city center bonus, Phoenicia does not come to mind first.

And why not? If there's any civilization which this makes sense for, it's Phoenicia. Phoenicians settled locations with the first consideration being whether it would have a strategic and/or defensible port whether on the Levant, North Africa, or Hispania. Their cities were quite literally built around their harbors.

Again it's more likely to be a Harbor than not, but I wouldn't rule it out.

You are a crazy person.

You'll see. You'll ALL see!!!!111

 

[PhoenicianGold]

And why not? If there's any civilization which this makes sense for, it's Phoenicia. Phoenicians settled locations with the first consideration being whether it would have a strategic and/or defensible port whether on the Levant, North Africa, or Hispania.

Hmmmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Something about it still doesn't feel quite right, and I think that's mostly due to the adjacency bonus and the weirdness of making specifically a Cothon the center of every city as opposed to, y'know, a city. But you make a good case.

 

[Zaarin]

This, of course, would only be reflected in, say, a special Trade Route graphic

I've been begging for ethnic Trader graphics since before R&F, so I hope they do this even if the Phoenicians don't get a unique Trader.

Do we have examples of unique civilian units?

Civ5 had the Khan replacing the Great General, Merchant of Venice replacing the Great Merchant, and I think India got a unique Worker. They haven't done so yet in Civ6, though. A unique Builder could actually be the most valuable UU in the game, but I'm not sure which civ to propose such a thing for...Certainly not Phoenicia.

Another hint (although this is VERY much a reach) is their discussion of Valetta in particular in the Ottoman stream which they frankly randomly brought up. Valetta allows you to purchase city center buildings with Faith. Valetta is in Malta, an island colonized by Phoenicians. See where I'm going with this? The synergy would be real.

They brought up Valetta specifically in relationship to Suleiman's magnanimity to the Knights of St. John, who relocated from Jerusalem to Malta, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been an oblique hint about the Phoenicians either. (I miss Sarah's lampshading when the devs asked obvious leading questions. )

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I've been begging for ethnic Trader graphics since before R&F, so I hope they do this even if the Phoenicians don't get a unique Trader.

Romani lol. Or, more practically, Italy, Swahili, or Chola. Or even more likely, Portugal.

A unique Builder could actually be the most valuable UU in the game, but I'm not sure which civ to propose such a thing for...Certainly not Phoenicia.

Masons? I guess they would fit Ireland about as well as Scotland or England. Or Italy. Or a George Washington LA. Or Dixie.

I still want the Navajo to have a unique spy unit so I'm totally in favor of expack three having no military UUs.

 

[Ziad]

They brought up Valetta specifically in relationship to Suleiman's magnanimity to the Knights of St. John, who relocated from Jerusalem to Malta

Right but it was still a random tangent I think, and in every livestream they've hinted about something in the next... but I suppose it's more likely to be incidental lol

 

[Zaarin]

Masons?

Are not literally stonemasons.

 

[bbbt]

Civ5 had the Khan replacing the Great General, Merchant of Venice replacing the Great Merchant, and I think India got a unique Worker.

The unique Indian 'Fast Worker' was Civ 4. I think it just got an extra movement point. I thinking giving an extra builder charge to Chinese builders in civ 6 would be somewhat equivalent.

 

[awesome]

I was thinking that Guarani could get an earlier unique medic for a Curandero unique unit (or an equivalent native name), since I can't seem to find a name for their military units, aside from maybe naming a unique musketman after a battle or a tribe.

Phoenician traders, though, would probably be handled better as part of their ability, since the only things I can think of that would make sense are making them move faster or increasing the length of their trade routes. A trader that moves an extra tile per turn would be great, but it wouldn't really make sense as a unique unit.

 

[Zaarin]

The unique Indian 'Fast Worker' was Civ 4. I think it just got an extra movement point. I thinking giving an extra builder charge to Chinese builders in civ 6 would be somewhat equivalent.

Yes, but it doesn't cost Qin his Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

I was thinking that Guarani could get a unique medic for a Curandero unique unit

Then the Guarani will be the only civ in the game jealous of Tamar's unique walls; I can't think of many more unfortunate things to have unique than a Medic.

Phoenician traders, though, would probably be handled better as part of their ability, since the only things I can think of that would make sense are making them move faster or increasing the length of their trade routes. A trader that moves an extra tile per turn would be great, but it wouldn't really make sense as a unique unit.

Agreed.

 

[awesome]

Then the Guarani will be the only civ in the game jealous of Tamar's unique walls; I can't think of many more unfortunate things to have unique than a Medic.

Yeah, I'm thinking this is why we don't have any unique civilian units this time around. Great people are already all unique as it is, and anything any other unique civilians would do is either handled better by an ability or not worth it.

 

[ChocolateShake]

I liked the caravans of Civ 2. I suppose they'll probably never make a comeback but it felt good to use them.

If the Cothon does turn out to be a harbor replacement, I wonder what benefits it might bring. It's possible it could have walls and HP, but I don't think they'll go for that. Maybe it could unlock special bonuses for sea trade routes.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Are not literally stonemasons.

Obviously, but their identity has always been closely tied to architecture. And there aren't any better options for a unique builder lol.

It is still entirely possible that the Cothon is a UI and Eleanor gets the UD. Though I have no no idea what she would get. Court of love replaces the government plaza?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Docks are in the City Center, so the Cothon could essentially just replace the City Center. It would essentially be a City Center with additional Harbor traits which allows you to construct both City Center and Harbor buildings in it. Phoenicians would be barred from constructing Harbor districts, and they must settle on Coast/Lake to gain the Cothon (or possibly be completely limited to Coast/Lake).

This would solve the inland Harbor redundancy issue, the inland Harbor issue, the conversion issue, the canal issue (Cothons weren't canals but city centers can act as such so it would be a 2 in 1), while also providing an ability reminiscent of that of Civilization 5 (Free Harbor in the city) and uniquely make them very dependent on coast.

It would ALSO directly allow sea trade routes without having to research Shipbuilding.

Harbor adjacencies would then transfer to the City Center (so no clashing here) while possibly adding more adjacencies to Industrial, Campus, and Holy Site districts.

It makes so much sense!

Another hint (although this is VERY much a reach) is their discussion of Valetta in particular in the Ottoman stream which they frankly randomly brought up. Valetta allows you to purchase city center buildings with Faith. Valetta is in Malta, an island colonized by Phoenicians. See where I'm going with this? The synergy would be real.

How about this:
All Phoenician Cities have to be founded on the coast or no more than 1 tile away from the coast.
As soon as the city is founded, it gets a Free District: The Cotton, placed on the nearest coastal waters tile and, if necessary, providing a 'canal' -like connection to the City Center one tile inland.

This solves the problem of trying to put a City Center on water, which would be required if the Cothon = City Center.
It also gives a little bit of flexibility to the City Center placement while still making Sea Trade/Coastal positioning one of the Civ Attributes.
It makes Sea Trade Routes possible to all Phoenician Cities just as soon as they want to allow it.
It actually increases the adjacency bonuses from the Cothon, since there is now a possibility of getting adjacencies from 2 different tiles - one on land, one next to the land.

This also, coincidentally, gives the Phoenicians an advantage in Canaling, since they potentially could already have a 2 - tile (Cothon + City Center) 'canal'. That would allow them to take advantage of two-tile isthmuses as city sites with extra sea trade possibilities and more efficient naval movement.

Throw in a Unique Phoenician Sea Trader with longer range, more Gold Bonus (and maybe a Science Bonus as well) and ability to defend itself (As in: Cannot be attacked except by a Naval Unit at least 1 Era in advance of Phoenicia?) - and we've got the Trading, Seapower Phoenicia.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

How about this:
All Phoenician Cities have to be founded on the coast or no more than 1 tile away from the coast.
As soon as the city is founded, it gets a Free District: The Cotton, placed on the nearest coastal waters tile and, if necessary, providing a 'canal' -like connection to the City Center one tile inland.

This solves the problem of trying to put a City Center on water, which would be required if the Cothon = City Center.
It also gives a little bit of flexibility to the City Center placement while still making Sea Trade/Coastal positioning one of the Civ Attributes.
It makes Sea Trade Routes possible to all Phoenician Cities just as soon as they want to allow it.
It actually increases the adjacency bonuses from the Cothon, since there is now a possibility of getting adjacencies from 2 different tiles - one on land, one next to the land.

This also, coincidentally, gives the Phoenicians an advantage in Canaling, since they potentially could already have a 2 - tile (Cothon + City Center) 'canal'. That would allow them to take advantage of two-tile isthmuses as city sites with extra sea trade possibilities and more efficient naval movement.

Throw in a Unique Phoenician Sea Trader with longer range, more Gold Bonus (and maybe a Science Bonus as well) and ability to defend itself (As in: Cannot be attacked except by a Naval Unit at least 1 Era in advance of Phoenicia?) - and we've got the Trading, Seapower Phoenicia.

This feels very random. I don't like random.

But seriously, the devs wouldn't let a UI be at all subject to random chance unless the civ itself wanted a "random" flavor. UIs are supposed to increase player choice and agency, not take it away.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

This feels very random. I don't like random.

But seriously, the devs wouldn't let a UI be at all subject to random chance unless the civ itself wanted a "random" flavor. UIs are supposed to increase player choice and agency, not take it away.

I don't think it is any more Random than Terrain Bonuses that are already in the game: Phoenicia, under this set of ideas, might be 'crippled' playing on a Pangaea Map and trying to find enough City Sites, for instance. That just means Phoenicia gets a Coastal Start Bias, as, for instance, Nubia should get a desert/flood plains bias and Russia a Tundra bias. I will admit that the game's coding does a thoroughly rotten job of implimenting those biases (I have personally restarted a game up to 10 times trying to get even a single Desert Tile for a Nubia start) but that's an Incompetence In Programming problem, not a Civ Design problem.

If you don't want to play a Coastal Start, don't play Phoenicia. Don't like Tundra, don't play Russia.
Don't like fighting Wars of Aggression, don't play Aztecs. Or Zulus. Or Mongols. Or, very soon, Ottomans . . .
Problem Solved.

 

[Zaarin]

Obviously, but their identity has always been closely tied to architecture. And there aren't any better options for a unique builder lol.

"Ramesses II also leads Egypt in Sid Meier's Civilization VI. His unique unit is the Hebrew Slave." Won't offend anyone.
"Alexander III also leads Russia in Sid Meier's Civilization VI. His unique unit is the Muzhik." (Russian serfdom wasn't really that unique...except that it lasted through the nineteenth century.)

It is still entirely possible that the Cothon is a UI and Eleanor gets the UD.

We discovered the Cothon in the first place because Pamukkale gives it an adjacency bonus, so it has to be a district.

Though I have no no idea what she would get. Court of love replaces the government plaza?

So help me, if they did this...

Phoenicia, under this set of ideas, might be 'crippled' playing on a Pangaea Map and trying to find enough City Sites, for instance.

As Indonesia already is.

I have personally restarted a game up to 10 times trying to get even a single Desert Tile for a Nubia start

Oh, good, it's not just me. Hope that's taken into account with the new map scripting we've been promised.

 

[Ziad]

Thanks for those ideas. They're quite creative!

Frankly my qualm with Cothon being a Harbor replacement is that it simply comes too late at Shipbuilding. Phoenicia would be pretty bad at coast early on til it could build it unless they get passive coastal bonuses. Phoenicia would start with land trade routes until it built Harbors in its cities unless it got a passive bonus.

But even then... none of it makes sense. I would sooner see Phoenicia get immediate Sailing and Shipbuilding than the Maori, but that's not what happened. This is probably the best argument against a City Center Cothon. You start without the Sailing/Shipbuilding technologies yet you have a harbor already?

Of course it could always come earlier. Perhaps it could be available immediately at a reduced cost, but then you face the same issue above. Perhaps they just ignore the tech awkwardness and let you have your sailing and shipbuilding even without the technology, no different than researching computers when you don't have electricity yet.

If I were being completely reasonable (and I refuse to be ) this is what I think is the most likely outcome.

Cothon replaces Harbor. It has an interesting mechanic (built on land or spawns a resource etc..) and is available earlier and at a cheaper price.

UA involves trade routes, probably sea distance and yield related. It also has bonuses to science, production, and gold in tile and/or trade route yields.

Another UA has some diplomatic favor tie and possible trade deal bonuses. Also loyalty on coastal cities somewhere.

UU is a ship.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

"Ramesses II also leads Egypt in Sid Meier's Civilization VI. His unique unit is the Hebrew Slave." Won't offend anyone.
"Alexander III also leads Russia in Sid Meier's Civilization VI. His unique unit is the Muzhik." (Russian serfdom wasn't really that unique...except that it lasted through the nineteenth century.)

I mean...the citizens in civ might as well be slaves. :/

We discovered the Cothon in the first place because Pamukkale gives it an adjacency bonus, so it has to be a district.

The Chateau, Colossal Heads, Golf Course, Hockey Rink, Kurgan, Mekewap, Mission, Nubian Pyramid, Outback Station, Pairidaeza, Stepwell, Terrace Farm, and Ziggurat all have adjacency bonuses. So I'm not ruling it out as an improvement yet, unless there is hard confirmation that the drop-down excludes improvement adjacency bonuses.

So help me, if they did this...

Afraid of the cooties, eh?

 

[Ziad]

LUAs dont have unique districts so it's a pretty safe bet that Eleanor won't. We're down one district, so there's a 99.9% chance Cothon is one.