All very interesting
I’m looking forward to this civ.
I think some sort of bonus to sea trade is a safe bet.
Probably science focus since the current GS civs don’t really have a science focus and we haven’t heard anything about the science victory changes yet
Agreed, so far all districts only have one unique replacement, I don't see the Cothon being the odd one out (maybe that's just my OCD ). Earlier canals could give Phoenicia a head start in dominating the world trade system
Early canals sounds very situational. There wouldn't be many places on the map were you could even build one and even less where they would be very valuable. An inland harbor that doubles as a canal would be much stronger. It would serve as an early canal anyway and would have value even when the canal part has not. Once real canals are unlocked, they could be part of a two-tile canal, with one tile being the cothon and the other a regular canal. Or the canal could be even three- or four-tile with the city center. That would be much more fun than a mere early canal, which is why I think they have gone for that.
I think it's more likely to be an inland Harbor that has canal functionality rather than be a strict Canal replacement.
Cothons were ultimately harbors. To have both a Cothon and a Harbor in the same city would be plain weird, although having so many coastal improvements would be fun I guess if they went the Canal route.
It's pretty clear that most people believe that Phoenicia will have trade route and luxury bonuses, a propensity to settle on coast, and the unique unit being the Trireme. I'm inclined to agree.
I think it's more likely to be an inland Harbor that has canal functionality rather than be a strict Canal replacement.
Cothons were ultimately harbors. To have both a Cothon and a Harbor in the same city would be plain weird, although having so many coastal improvements would be fun I guess if they went the Canal route.
It's pretty clear that most people believe that Phoenicia will have trade route and luxury bonuses, a propensity to settle on coast, and the unique unit being the Trireme. I'm inclined to agree.
If it does replace either the canal or city center I could see the ability being not able to build regular harbor districts as a so called penalty. However the Cothon would make up for the bonuses sort of like how Kongo can't build Holy Sites but can get relics and apostles based on other things.
Hmm, a glance at Wikipedia says he was both but was probably a bigger deal in Aram and Ugarit than Phoenicia. I think I was thinking of Baal Hammon. Too many Baalim... (In my book where Carthage survives into the Middle Ages and becomes Syriac Orthodox, I went ahead and syncretized Baal with the Hebrew usage of Adonay so that I could keep all the Phoenician theophoric names with "Baal" in them. Otherwise I wouldn't have many names to work with, like if you threw out all the Hebrew names with El. )
I think it's more likely to be an inland Harbor that has canal functionality rather than be a strict Canal replacement.
Cothons were ultimately harbors. To have both a Cothon and a Harbor in the same city would be plain weird, although having so many coastal improvements would be fun I guess if they went the Canal route.
This makes the most sense to me: as you stated, the Cotton WAS a Harbor, so should replace the Harbor but with some 'extra' bonus attached to it.
Having it possible to build a Cothon, say, 1 tile from the coast with an automatic channel or 'canal' to the coast would be one way to do this, allowing more flexibility in city placement and the connecting of Phoenician cities by Sea Trade Routes even when they aren't precisely on the coast.
It's pretty clear that most people believe that Phoenicia will have trade route and luxury bonuses, a propensity to settle on coast, and the unique unit being the Trireme. I'm inclined to agree.
While there is a good historical basis for the Trireme as a Phoenician Unique Unit, I think the ship type is too closely associated with the Greeks and Athens to most people. They could still do it, but I think it is a bit of a long shot. On the other hand, having Phoenicia get longer Sea Trade Routes from the start and/or Unpillagable Sea Trade Routes is, I think, a stronger possibility - possibly the extra distance when the Trade Route originates in a city with a Cothon.
No apologies needed. If you could think of everything, you wouldn't have needed to start the Thread, and we'd have to rename you Hawking or Da Vinci . . .
While there is a good historical basis for the Trireme as a Phoenician Unique Unit, I think the ship type is too closely associated with the Greeks and Athens to most people.
Hmm, a glance at Wikipedia says he was both but was probably a bigger deal in Aram and Ugarit than Phoenicia. I think I was thinking of Baal Hammon. Too many Baalim... (In my book where Carthage survives into the Middle Ages and becomes Syriac Orthodox, I went ahead and syncretized Baal with the Hebrew usage of Adonay so that I could keep all the Phoenician theophoric names with "Baal" in them. Otherwise I wouldn't have many names to work with, like if you threw out all the Hebrew names with El. )
This is what actually makes me believe Cothon isn't a Canal replacement. I just don't see China getting early Canals then having Phoenicia also have early canals through a unique district that normally comes much later.
That and the Cothon not actually being a canal.
The same reasoning is what makes me thing Phoenicia won't have mountain crossing references. Inca gets an early mountain pass, so they won't give Phoenicia something similar for free.
While there is a good historical basis for the Trireme as a Phoenician Unique Unit, I think the ship type is too closely associated with the Greeks and Athens to most people.
Unique units in Civilization games aren't necessarily unique to that civilization in real life. Another possibility is the Quinquireme which was mostly used by the Phoenicians, Egyptians, and Athenians. Two are already present in-game. A third would bring the units to the forefront.
I only mention Trireme cause it's glaringly absent.
Frankly I don't particularly care, as long as it's a naval unit. I want this civilization to SCREAM thalassacracy.
I hope not; a Carthaginian Quinquereme would be a Near-Fantasy Ship.
The Quinquereme was invented in Dionysus of Syracuse's Ortygian Workshop about 399 BCE.
The Quadrireme was developed in Carthage around 350 BCE, and used for a few years by Carthage and Athens, then dropped for the Quinquereme, which became the 'standard' warship of the late 3rd century BCE on. Carthage modified the Quinquereme, apparently to get more maneuverability and 'ramming effectiveness' out of it, just as the Romans copied the Carthaginian Quinquereme and added a top heavy grappling bridge (the 'Corvus') which made it a better Melee warship, but also made it susceptible to rolling over in a heavy sea and going down like the proverbial Rock. They lost a couple fleets in storms that way.
By the way, L. Sprague DeCamp wrote a historical novel called Arrows of Hercules about an 'engineer' working in Ortygia who invented the catapult at about the same time (400 BCE). I recommend it ; reading that a half-century ago is where I heard about the Workshop for the first time. One of the fascinating Footnotes of History . . .
Not published, but among the several books I'm writing or working on is one set in an alternate timeline where the Second Punic War ended in a stalemate, with Carthage then surviving the Islamic Conquest in southeastern Spain. I originally set it in the Canaries (which just begs for a pun with Canaan), but it turns out the Canaries aren't very ideal for building a prominent civilization from.
Not published, but among the several books I'm writing or working on is one set in an alternate timeline where the Second Punic War ended in a stalemate, with Carthage then surviving the Islamic Conquest in southeastern Spain
Adding a bit of nuance to this discussion regarding the Cothon.
Given the Chinese canal change and the fact that the Cothon was a harbor, it will likely replace the harbor. Unless by some small miracle Eleanor gets a UD and the Cothon is a UI which I think highly unlikely at this point.
However, this means Harbors will by necessity have to be implemented differently than Entertainment Complexes. Because unlike water parks, Harbors by default cannot be built on land; Phoenicia would be the only civ to have a land harbor, universal or unique.
This creates two potential scenarios:
1. The Cothon is the unique version of a new district that is the land equivalent of a harbor. The pros to this implementation are that the system works similarly if not identically to the Entertainment Complex/Water Park, and that the devs don't need to figure out how to implement lighthouses/docks inland. They could just put different buildings in the new district. The cons are that Phoenicia would be overall less unique in a game where anyone can build a harbor, and Phoenicia/England have to split a UD while Brazil gets both. In addition, what buildings could possibly flesh out a unique inland harbor district? So I do not think this is likely.
2. The Cothon is just a second unique Harbor with a terrain restriction. The pros to this implementation are that it makes Phoenicia the only civ that can build inland harbors, and it doesn't require finding design space for a second universal harbor district. I think this is more likely. But given that the Cothon would necessarily have a lighthouse and dock, I think it would be strictly a coastal tile and could never be built further inland.
3. If a civilization conquers a Phoenician city, the Cothon transforms into a canal district.
But yea this awkwardness does make me believe even more that Cothon is a Docks replacement and that Phoenicians do not construct Harbor districts (Their city IS a harbor). It would also effectively limit them to coast ( as I also theorize).
I could be wrong, of course. It could just be a harbor replacement. I just hope whatever they do, the graphic matches that of an inland harbor.
The Hesperides, yes. To be fair, the Canaries were inhabited, but the Guanches were Neolithic hunter-gatherers, who have smaller needs than large urban societies.
I could see them going two ways:
The Trireme, or the earlier Bireme or 'Pentekonter', the first multi-banked oared warship. Either would give them a nice Naval Superiority over anybody else until the Quadrireme comes along in the game, and even then they could hold their own for a couple of Eras until the Caravel.
The Trade Ship, or 'Round Ship', the first known (although there are some similar images on a fresco from the Minoans showing 'freighters' in a harbor, but those might be early Phoenician as well as Minoan) effective sailing freight carrier. This, of course, would only be reflected in, say, a special Trade Route graphic for Phoenician sea trade routes, but could be reflected in increased returns from each Trade Route and, as mentioned before, increased length for early Phoenician Trade Routes. This would model in the game the ability of the Phoenicians to trade with places and peoples (further Spain, Sardinia, North Africa) that nobody else could reach.
3. If a civilization conquers a Phoenician city, the Cothon transforms into a canal district.
But yea this awkwardness does make me believe even more that Cothon is a Docks replacement and that Phoenicians do not construct Harbor districts (Their city IS a harbor). It would also effectively limit them to coast ( as I also theorize).
I could be wrong, of course. It could just be a harbor replacement. I just hope whatever they do, the graphic matches that of an inland harbor.
Docks are in the City Center, so the Cothon could essentially just replace the City Center. It would essentially be a City Center with additional Harbor traits which allows you to construct both City Center and Harbor buildings in it. Phoenicians would be barred from constructing Harbor districts, and they must settle on Coast/Lake to gain the Cothon (or possibly be completely limited to Coast/Lake).
This would solve the inland Harbor redundancy issue, the inland Harbor issue, the conversion issue, the canal issue (Cothons weren't canals but city centers can act as such so it would be a 2 in 1), while also providing an ability reminiscent of that of Civilization 5 (Free Harbor in the city) and uniquely make them very dependent on coast.
It would ALSO directly allow sea trade routes without having to research Celestial Navigation.
Harbor adjacencies would then transfer to the City Center (so no clashing here) while possibly adding more adjacencies to Industrial, Campus, and Holy Site districts.
It makes so much sense!
Another hint (although this is VERY much a reach) is their discussion of Valetta in particular in the Ottoman stream which they frankly randomly brought up. Valetta allows you to purchase city center buildings with Faith. Valetta is in Malta, an island colonized by Phoenicians. See where I'm going with this? The synergy would be real.
I somehow can't believe the Cothon will be a canal replacement.
The first problem is realism: Unlike "real" ancient canals in Egypt or China, it never connected two bodies of water.
It would also create quite a few placement problems - a "normal" coastal city has no use for a canal! Only cities on narrow landbridges or 1 tile away from the coast have. Should Carthage be forced to settle 1 tile away from the coast? That would be absurd. What about all the other situations where a canal makes no sense? I can't believe they would make it harder for Phoenicia to find a suitable place for a harbor.
Also, canals are quite complicated graphically, which would make the effort for the devs extremely high (just imagine - a unique canal would need a modern version that connects to the Panama canal wonder!)
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). Earlier canals could give Phoenicia a head start in dominating the world trade system
