pineappledan, HungryForFood, & Recursive's New Beliefs

pineappledan · May 10, 2021

Probably shouldn't be looking for more pantheon ideas (there are already 25 of them in-game)

What we need are ideas for Founders, because G is taking the yield from Tech thing and incorporating it into the main mod in some form or another

Hinin · May 10, 2021

Well, maybe thinking about new triggers or effects could prove useful.

Here is some brainstorming once more (in bold what I find more interesting).

Spoiler Ideas thrown in the mix :

As a sidenote, I know Animism doesn't work well at the moment, but I really see it more as a Founder belief (for economic rush), since having to wait until enhancer seems a little long for this, but follower are overall too weak for this kind of effect.

pineappledan · May 10, 2021

Hinin said:
GEngineer/GScientist/GMerchant/GDiplomat expending (so non-cultural/military/religious GP)
GWriter/GArtist/GMusician expending

GP expending too similar to divine inheritance. Hard to not make it feel worse, or way too good, because you could just ignore the specialists it doesn't boost

Hinin said:
GGeneral/GAdmiral expending

The GGeneral/GAdmiral birth mechanic is underused, and I still hold a bit of a torch for that idea as a replacement for the existing Hero Worship belief, because it is currently doubled-up on Crusader Spirit

Hinin said:
Spy mission success

A spy bonus on a founder would be a dead belief for 3 eras. I think spy bonuses are a really good idea for a new reformation though, because Reformations are all about augmenting mechanics with later unlocks

Hinin said:
TRoute finished

Very doable candidate. A TR finishing bonus that scales with followers on Empire.

Hinin said:
TR plunder/pillage/kill

I don't like it, because the triggers would potentially be too fast to scale on follower like other founders, and it would be potentially very feast or famine.

Hinin said:
Finishing Wonders

This was the idea I had when I first posted this. Maybe we could replace Goddess of the Home with something like your God of Death idea, and move the yield from Construction here, and then have a big scaling from Followers trigger that triggers on a World Wonder?

Hinin said:
Bonus towards Diplomatic units and GDiplomat

It's a possibility. We would have to flesh out some really interesting idea for what it would actually do.

We can go back to the old why so few beliefs? thread for some context on this revived discussion.

Hinin said:
I know Animism doesn't work well at the moment, but I really see it more as a Founder belief (for economic rush), since having to wait until enhancer seems a little long for this, but follower are overall too weak for this kind of effect.

Both for historical reasons and for gameplay reasons, I really like where it is.

Animism was a theory of religion originally coined by 19th century European anthropologists to describe "primitive" belief systems which they saw as being the initial building blocks of "sophisticated" religion like the Abrahamic monotheism that Europe had
The term was re-appropriated by those same "primitive" groups, not only because they felt the core description of anima did accurately represent aspects of their beliefs about a living, unified spiritual existence
It was useful as an anti-colonial language, asserting the legitimacy of non-western belief systems as both philosophically and spiritually sophisticated

So I like the placement because at least the theory of the belief is a rather late development

Mechanically, I like that it comes later. It forces a choice between developing or keeping terrain unspoiled, and pushes that decision back

pineappledan · May 10, 2021

I still really like my idea of implementing a Caste System Founder that gives a small bonus representing each of the 4 Hindu Varnas, but disables City Citizen Management
Can Construct Royal Parsonage Wonder
Brahmin - +1 :c5faith:

to Specialists
Kshatriya - +10% :c5rangedstrength:

RCS to Archer units
Vaishya - +1 :c5food:

for every 4 non-specialist citizens
Shudra - +2 :c5production:

to Laborers
Cannot assign citizens in a city following this belief

I recognize most players would hate this, but at least it would be AI friendly, and flavour galore

Hinin · May 10, 2021

Spoiler A lot of ideas :

pineappledan said:
The GGeneral/GAdmiral birth mechanic is underused, and I still hold a bit of a torch for that idea as a replacement for the existing Hero Worship belief, because it is currently doubled-up on Crusader Spirit

I agree that having two major beliefs with a focus on conquering cities is redundant. I would prefer an approach when beliefs tend to do quite different thing, and you take an array of beliefs that synergizes well together (or patch up flaws of your civ ingame), and not simply stack as much beliefs doing the same thing just because (ex. : Theocratic Rule and Synagogue).

Here is an idea for a revised Hero Worship/Crusader Spirit duo

Spoiler Hero Worship/Crusader Spirit :

pineappledan said:
A spy bonus on a founder would be a dead belief for 3 eras. I think spy bonuses are a really good idea for a new reformation though, because Reformations are all about augmenting mechanics with later unlocks

Idea for a spy-focused Reformation belief.

Spoiler Spy Reformation :

pineappledan said:
Very doable candidate. A TR finishing bonus that scales with followers on Empire.

Spoiler TR-based Founder :

pineappledan said:
This was the idea I had when I first posted this. Maybe we could replace Goddess of the Home with something like your God of Death idea, and move the yield from Construction here, and then have a big scaling from Followers trigger that triggers on a World Wonder?

Spoiler Death Pantheon/Building Founder :

pineappledan said:
It's a possibility. We would have to flesh out some really interesting idea for what it would actually do.

Spoiler Diplomacy focused pantheon :

pineappledan said:
Both for historical reasons and for gameplay reasons, I really like where it is.

Animism was a theory of religion originally coined by 19th century European anthropologists to describe "primitive" belief systems which they saw as being the initial building blocks of "sophisticated" religion like the Abrahamic monotheism that Europe had

The term was re-appropriated by those same "primitive" groups, not only because they felt the core description of anima did accurately represent aspects of their beliefs about a living, unified spiritual existence

It was useful as an anti-colonial language, asserting the legitimacy of non-western belief systems as both philosophically and spiritually sophisticated

So I like the placement because at least the theory of the belief is a rather late development

Mechanically, I like that it comes later. It forces a choice between developing or keeping terrain unspoiled, and pushes that decision back

Good arguments. A lot is changing nowadays anyway, so I'll wait and see.

pineappledan said:
I still really like my idea of implementing a Caste System Founder that gives a small bonus representing each of the 4 Hindu Varnas, but disables City Citizen Management
Can Construct Royal Parsonage Wonder
Brahmin - +1 to Specialists
Kshatriya - +10%RCS to Archer units
Vaishya - +1 for every 4 non-specialist citizens
Shudra - +2 to Laborers
Cannot assign citizens in a city following this belief

I recognize most players would hate this, but at least it would be AI friendly, and flavour galore

I'm all for it. Those who don't want to use it don't have to anyway. A lot of thinking required for making it interesting enough though.

pineappledan · May 10, 2021

Hinin said:
When a GGeneral or GAdmiral is born, receive Faith and Production for every Follower of your Religion.

Instant

production boosts are hard to balance and spooky. It might be fine, because timing GG/GA births is so hard it can't be easilly abused for wonder rushing.

Hinin said:
Secret Societies
Gain additional Spies (based on number of City-States in game). When a spy mission in a Foreign City is successful, receive Science and Gold, scaling with era and mission difficulty (security level and type of mission). Unlock Test of Faith counterintelligence mission (long time) which kills all hostile spies within the City but decreases Security Level.

Here's my version:
Underground Sects
Gain :c5culture:

whenever you complete an espionage mission. Unlocks Call to the Willing Intelligence Mission (high risk), which triggers a major spread action (like a GProphet) and an instant boost of :c5culture:

Culture in your :c5capital:

Capital.

Hinin said:
Traveler's Tale
Unlocks Kaaba (?) (10 Faith, 1 TRoute ; +1 Happiness in Cities working at least 1 Holy Site, Unlocks Reformation). Completing a Trade Route grants Faith and GEngineer/GMerchant/GScientist points to the origin City if International, GWriter/GArtist/GMusician if Internal, scaling with the number of Followers of your Religion in Foreign Cities (max. : TBD).

Man you really want to put the Kaaba in the game, eh? I would put this on the backburner, since I like the wonder founder a little better for now.

Hinin said:
Goddess of the Underworld
When a Military Unit you own is killed, receive Faith and Production in its city of origin, scaling with the unit cost and level. +1 Faith from all sources.

This is going to be hard to code... I just don't know if it would be that fun, tbh. It would be insanely good on Ethiopia, or if you have a :c5faith:

faith resource like Incense nearby, but utter garbage for everyone else. And then the other part of it is a reward for failure.

Hinin said:
Chosen People
Unlocks TBD (5 Faith, 5 CS ; +5 Production from Holy Sites, unlocks Reformation Belief). When a Building is constructed, gain Food and GA points, scaling with era. When a Wonder is constructed, gain additional Food and GA points, scaling with the number of Followers of your Religion in your Empire.

The main idea for Chosen People is to give a way for wide empires to benefit more easily from GAges : constructing Buildings already scales well with number of cities, + a bonus that scales with Followers inside of your empire means that it isn't only a belief for tall Tradition.

Chosen people is the name of Israel's UA. It definitely needs to have :c5faith:

faith in the instant yield if it's a founder, doesn't it? The only ones that don't are the spreader ones (Apostolic and Pilgrim), but that's because they would just be refunding the cost of the missionaries if they did. For the other yield type, I wouldn't want to do :c5food:

Food and fully copy the Khmer. How about this?

House of God
Can build the Place of Truth Wonder (+3 :c5gold:

3

, 10%

Towards Buildings). 10 :c5gold:

When a City constructs a Building, scaling with Era, and 25 :c5gold:

when you construct a World Wonder, scaling with number of Cities following your Religion (caps at 20)

Hinin · May 10, 2021

pineappledan said:
Man you really want to put the Kaaba in the game, eh? I would put this on the backburner, since I like the wonder founder a little better for now.

I just like the little meteor in a cube. :lol:

More seriously, it is a landmark among religious landmarks, so I've always wondered why it wasn't into the game.

As for the rest, as I said these are mostly ideas I'm throwing here knowing full well some are problematic from the get go. That said, I was happy about the Traveler's Tale, but in the end, it's you the chief, chief.

adan_eslavo · Jul 22, 2021

pineappledan said:
Current state:
resolving lua for non-pantheon beliefs. currently causing CTDs

Is this still viable? Or maybe it is some relic and mod is fully playable?

pineappledan · Jul 22, 2021

DLL integration has been done so everything works seemlessly now.

adan_eslavo · Jul 22, 2021

Then I would suggesting clearing the post #2. It's confusing.

InkAxis · Jul 28, 2021

I didn't realize this was all DLL integrated either.

@Gazebo you've been pinged here 3 times, what do you think about adding this to VP? It would mean the game could support more players, as currently there aren't enough beliefs. No new code and pretty nice effects.

Gazebo · Jul 29, 2021

I'd like to make sure things are balanced against the existing beliefs and not creating any unintended balance concerns with synergies.

G

pineappledan · Sep 4, 2021

Big beliefs overhaul is live. details in the OP.

Adds:
Work Ethic
Indulgences
Gurukulam
Daoguan
Gurdwara
Nunciatures

Removes:
Cooperation
Veneration
Way of Noble Truths
Abode of Peace

Reworks/modifies:
Apostolic Tradition
Divine Ineritance
Mandirs
Global Commandments
Sacred Sites
Faith of the Masses
Syncretism
Symbolism
Mendicancy

Kim Dong Un · Sep 4, 2021

I understand the nerf, but removing "Morale" from Orders has already saddened me. My play-style / build-order will never be the same during warmonger games ever again. :sad:

notaspambot · Sep 4, 2021

So I've went through it, and while I'm not familiar enough with the discussion on the topic to speak on it balance-wise, I do feel unhappy about some of the naming choices.

First, the new Orthodoxy reformation belief feels like it doesn't have anything to do with actual doctrinal orthodoxy, or the Orthodox church. I'd much prefer having it named something like "State Church", or for the obligatory Nazi reference, "Positive Religion".

Second, the Prophecy rework seems to be included here- although not on the list above, including the name change to Sainthood. I'm not really seeing what was wrong with Prophecy, and like the old name better because of how more universally applicable it is. Besides, Christians/Catholics get compensated for the removal of Veneration with Indulgences anyway.

pineappledan · Sep 5, 2021

Orthodoxy doesn't strictly mean the orthodox church, though the Eastern Orthodox Church certainly fits the description of an orthodox religion. Orthodoxy in general means a strict adherence to a central canon and the decrees/doctrines of religious councils. Therevada Buddhism is a Orthodox wing of Buddhism, Sunni is the Orthodox wing of Islam, for instance. Religious denominations that tend towards an emphasis on orthodoxy are more conservative, rigid, and hierarchical, with a higher emphasis on their religion as a corpus of canon and laws, as opposed to emphasizing religious disciplines, relationships, or experiences as central to the faith.

Prophecy was a bit repetitive with things like Revelation, and I felt the name was a bit too on the nose w.r.t. its bonuses. The word Saint has a Christian origin, but so does pretty much every other religious word in the English language, whether the practice is uniquely Christian or not. From the Wikipedia page:

The use of the term "saint" is not exclusive to Christianity. In many religions, there are people who have been recognized within their tradition as having fulfilled the highest aspirations of religious teaching. In English, the term saint is often used to translate this idea from many world religions. The Jewish hasid or tsaddiq, the Islamic qidees, the Zoroastrian fravashi, the Hindu rsi or guru, the Buddhist arahant or bodhisattva, the Daoist shengren, the Shinto kami, and others have all been referred to as saints.

Veneration isn't uniquely Christian either. Veneration is the practice of respecting and using icons and relics. Buddhism and Hinduism both have a much more robust set of practices around acts of veneration than Christianity. Islam has its own form as well (veneration of wali).

notaspambot · Sep 6, 2021

The thing with orthodoxy is that the "orthodox" position is highly religion-dependent. One religion may teach pacifism, while another may encourage wars of aggression and the sacrifice of captives. Yet whichever believers that adheres to those original teachings (and their related canons/councils/etc.) the most would be considered orthodox, lumping groups that would otherwise be diametricaly opposed to each other in the same term. Because of this, if Orthodoxy is to be used as a belief, I'd prefer it be something specifically faith or spread oriented- as it is with the current Orthodoxy/Ecumenism. For the reasons above, the current bonuses don't really feel suited for actual doctrinal orthodoxy and instead would be better named after something representing some form of a national church, or state-church cooperation.

Regarding Sainthood, while some may use the term saint more broadly in academic circles, I'd think that the majority of people would look at the word immediately think of the Christian system of the canonisation and veneration of saints instead. Especially since that when it comes to similar cases in other religions, people simply loan the foreign word directly instead of translating it as "saint". Just like the word guru, which happens to be given its own belief here in Guruship. That being said, I can understand the reasoning, although I still like Prophecy better.

(On a side note, I've always considered Veneration to be a direct reference to the Christian veneration of saints due to how its bonuses work, but I agree that this is a much more universal term.)

pineappledan · Sep 6, 2021

While the specifics of what doctrines are considered core differs by religion, a view of religion that holds to orthodoxy is going to share some common traits. Whatever the specific doctrines are, if you hold adherence to them as central above actual practice or religious experience, your religious system will default to being one that emphasizes authority, legalism, and hierarchical power structures. This is why orthodox branches of religions are often seen as deeply conservative, and when in a position of being a state religion -- which is 99% of world history until 200 years ago -- active in its collaboration with law enforcement and the courts of that culture to stamp out heresy, etc.

I actually called the belief Gurukulam in the game. I should update the OP on that one.

notaspambot · Sep 6, 2021

It feels like we're arguing in parallel at the moment, but I still really dislike the new names here so allow me to continue.

when in a position of being a state religion

But that's the thing, when it was a state religion. As I've said, I'd argue that your bonuses would perfectly describe beliefs that become a state "something". From religion, to ideology, and etc. Non-"orthodox" religions have plenty of times exhibited the behaviour you described when put into the same position. For example, India, a country with a highly decentralised religion in Hinduism with no real "orthodox" branch, is currently persecuting non-hindus. Even ancient Greece had people put on trial for charges of blasphemy. This is about power structures, not adherence to doctrine.

On the other hand, religious conservatism and respect for authority does not necessarily translate into cooperation with the state either. One of Israel's biggest headaches is its ultra-orthodox population, despite already being a Jewish state.

pineappledan · Sep 6, 2021

State Religion sounds more like a policy than a belief. And every religion you deal with in civ is a state religion as a matter of course. So it feels redundant anyways.

notaspambot said:
On the other hand, religious conservatism and respect for authority does not necessarily translate into cooperation with the state either. One of Israel's biggest headaches is its ultra-orthodox population, despite already being a Jewish state.

That's a very specific example in a very modern, progressive state dealing with the realities of a subpopulation so deeply conservative and orthodox in their religious practice that they are following thousands of years of halakhah in addition to the laws of the land. In the vast, vast, VAST majority of history, the religious authorities were deeply embedded with the secular powers, or they were the same thing.

You average game of civ you are dealing with hundreds of turns with the in-game equivalent of a Sanhedrin, and maybe 50 turns with the Hasidic hatzer, or whatever equivalent.

pineappledan, HungryForFood, & Recursive's New Beliefs

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