Planetfall
- Thread starter Maniac
- Start date
I gotta say that I am beginning to have doubts about Planetfall version 11's game balance. Even on Chieftain level, only the second most difficult after the basic level, I am losing cities with a Perimeter Defence to Planetlife after garrisoning them with five units! That can't be right! 
SMAC was never so difficult with alien lifeforms at such an early level.
SMAC was never so difficult with alien lifeforms at such an early level. 
Pfeffersack
Deity
I gotta say that I am beginning to have doubts about Planetfall version 11's game balance. Even on Chieftain level, only the second most difficult after the basic level, I am losing cities with a Perimeter Defence to Planetlife after garrisoning them with five units! That can't be right!
Have you made use of the bunker unit (bombard function) attached to the PD? And if you have five units there - don't you use them offensively vs. mindworms? Then you would have the 3:2 advantage on your side. Another question is what causes that native life? Do they enter your territory from outside or do you suffer from massive fungal blooms?
I'm playing PF on Emperor difficulty and haven't get into much trouble with native life after discovering the possibilities of bunkers and the numerous tweaks to native life. Perhaps if you load up the save it would be possible to see what goes wrong in your game.
slugwalk
Chieftain
I gotta say that I am beginning to have doubts about Planetfall version 11's game balance. Even on Chieftain level, only the second most difficult after the basic level, I am losing cities with a Perimeter Defence to Planetlife after garrisoning them with five units! That can't be right!
One thing I'm concerned about with Planetfall is that it seems to be more difficult to play than Civ4. Especially if you try to play it like Civ4. For instance, the tech tree is very complex, and certain techs like the one that gives you bunkers (I guess there are two now with the new perimeter defense bunker) are extremely important. This makes the game difficult and discouraging for newcomers. I've been playing for a while now and I still can't seem to make things work with a strict terraforming strategy (at least on Noble difficulty). Although, I've noticed that Miriam (AI controlled) seems to often do poorly with it as well.
Perhaps some of these issues could be addressed with help files/hints in the Datalinks, while others could be balance issues that could be fixed. I'd be willing to help write the hints, but I'm not sure I'm good enough at Planetfall to make the best suggestions. Maniac, if you'd like, I can put together a rough draft that I could then send around to more experienced players (Pfeffersack et al.) who could make suggestions.
GeoModder
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2005
- Messages
- 7,512
The native lifeforms, who are admittedly only defending their habitat, are a damned sight harder to beat than in SMAC!
IIRC, formers aren't killed in Planetfall. "Just"
defeat the intruding native life with some unit, and park it on the former until it comes online again.
Pfeffersack
Deity
I also think that this method of disabling formers temporarily helps the AI - it is more along the lines of BTS (the worst case would be them starting to build another "replacement" fromer during the recovery period...but can you ever have enough formers? Don't think so, as you can never have enough bunkers ) then an armoured former (with inbuild or choosen special abilities). The latter could cause unwanted side-effects, because the current AI would need to know about this strange mixture of civil and combat unit...and teaching this the AI would require additional coding and could slow the AI down even more.
) then an armoured former (with inbuild or choosen special abilities). The latter could cause unwanted side-effects, because the current AI would need to know about this strange mixture of civil and combat unit...and teaching this the AI would require additional coding and could slow the AI down even more.
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
Yup - it also nicely shows the AI's problems: I always see a couple of damaged aquaformers around AI cities - if it would actually lose these, the AI would go totally crazy! On the other hand, if former would participate in Psi combat... I don't know, somehow it seems fitting, because Psi combat isn't a battle of weapons, but of mental fortitude. I could totally imagine a former crew standing up to the terror and using a former to batter the worms into the ground...IIRC, formers aren't killed in Planetfall. "Just"
@slugwalk: I thought the Miriam problem got better with v11 - I ran two test games on AIAutoplaying... and in both Miriam ended up in the middle. Do you still see that problem in v11?
Cheers, LT.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I'd like that very much.
Terraformer Ted piloted his former into the fungal vortex, bulldozing over four waves of mindworms!
slugwalk
Chieftain
I'm honestly not sure. I've only played part of two games of v11, but Miriam was at the bottom in both of them. What always gets me when I play like Miriam (going straight for a terraforming approach) is: a) I can't claim as much territory as the AI's early in the game, because I don't get any culture (no culture bonus); b) I have to build lots of terraformers to clear fungus; c) my cities, extra populated due to my farms, seem to be extra tempting targets for the AI. Now I might just be imagining the third one, I don't know enough about the AI programing to say if it's true, but I feel that a straight terraforming approach may not be set up to work well early in the game. Have other people been able to get it to work, and do you find it as easy as an EB or Hybrid strategy?
Pfeffersack
Deity
In my current v11 game, AI Miriam ranks somewhere in the middle - as she did in most games with the versions before as well.
a) Miriam can (and should) make use of Psych Chaplains to expand the borders. The recreation commons give you a slot.
b) Indeed, more formers are needed. OTOH, using mines and farms give you extra production...
c) Since population contributes to the powergraph as well, it should be rather the opposite...
I haven't noticed much difference at all, I nearly always get an early declaration...Overall, I think a Terraform strategy is harder in terms of standing your ground vs. native life (the higher production is just enough to build enough replacements for all the lost troops, while a Hybrid will face less and capture them often), but you might get an edge vs. the AI. Hybrid means especially in the early and midgame much less hammers, which can leave you vulnerable vs. an industrial powerhouse AI. I haven't tried terraforming with v11 yet, but it worked for me before. Key is to clean out fungus consequently, go for bunkers early...and it makes a huge difference if you settle on low or highlands...the latter makes a Terraformers life a lot easier. Sea bases are even harder to maintain.
EB is however a serious competitor for Terraformed and often easier, if you don't have 1a terrain. Faster building of improvments does you not much good if their yields are poor. Plus that you can follow either VoP or Edenism and don't get sucked into the planetary conflict early.
Two very important points. BTW, thanks for all the responses.
As far as I can tell formers are killed in Planetfall! They disappear on both land in sea, at least for me!
Also, the Psi defence you can add to your ships and subs? Makes no bloody difference as far as I am concerned! I labour to construct a navy and in the next turn most of the craft and their crew have gone to the AV equivalent of Davy Jones locker.
In SMAC giving both formers and military units the Psi Defence actually made a difference!
One possible strategy I suppose is to flood the spawning grounds with formers to eradicate them and do nothing else! And in the meantime suffer a dwindling number of defence units!
Another strategy would simply be to cheat!
K... For those stronger players who can play on the Deity level with no problems, let the native flora/fauna be as big a nightmare as you choose but surely not for the the second easiest level!
I don't want to appear dog-in-the-manger here! I still love the mod want to see it further developed but I definitely think some tweaks could be made, toning down the Planetlife aggressiveness and lower levels and surely you don't need a workshop option to be able to endow the formers with a Psi defence, but as I said above, one that works!
As far as I can tell formers are killed in Planetfall! They disappear on both land in sea, at least for me!
Also, the Psi defence you can add to your ships and subs? Makes no bloody difference as far as I am concerned!
I labour to construct a navy and in the next turn most of the craft and their crew have gone to the AV equivalent of Davy Jones locker. In SMAC giving both formers and military units the Psi Defence actually made a difference!
One possible strategy I suppose is to flood the spawning grounds with formers to eradicate them and do nothing else! And in the meantime suffer a dwindling number of defence units!
Another strategy would simply be to cheat!
K... For those stronger players who can play on the Deity level with no problems, let the native flora/fauna be as big a nightmare as you choose but surely not for the the second easiest level!
I don't want to appear dog-in-the-manger here! I still love the mod want to see it further developed but I definitely think some tweaks could be made, toning down the Planetlife aggressiveness and lower levels and surely you don't need a workshop option to be able to endow the formers with a Psi defence, but as I said above, one that works!
Pfeffersack
Deity
As far as I can tell formers are killed in Planetfall! They disappear on both land in sea, at least for me!
You mean that they don't turn in the "damaged (aqua)former" unit at all?
That's really strange and should not happen in any case. It is a wild guess, but since other oddities like this happened in the past to some players...do you play under Vista OS and have the UAC enabled?Also, the Psi defence you can add to your ships and subs? Makes no bloody difference as far as I am concerned!
Hmm, with the RNG involved...are you really sure that you were not just unlucky? Another question...does Empath Song work for you? Are better odds displayed and do you get better combat results, when attacking with this promotion? Of course, it could be another AUC problem...
I understand your frustration and hopefully a solution can be find for your problems - it just hard if a problems appear just for some players. Maybe I should start my on Chieftain game to see how it plays for me...might help to narrow down the problem.
slugwalk
Chieftain
So here's a start on a Beginner's guide to Planetfall. I copied a few sections out of the datalinks. I have more to add, but I got tired of working on it for today 
. I'll add more later. Also, if you feel like it, you can let me know what you think of what I have so far.
I'd also like to copy in some of the hints, but I don't know where to find them.
View attachment Planetfall Beginner Guide V1.doc
. I'll add more later. Also, if you feel like it, you can let me know what you think of what I have so far.I'd also like to copy in some of the hints, but I don't know where to find them.
View attachment Planetfall Beginner Guide V1.doc
slugwalk
Chieftain
c) Since population contributes to the powergraph as well, it should be rather the opposite...
... it makes a huge difference if you settle on low or highlands...the latter makes a Terraformers life a lot easier. Sea bases are even harder to maintain.
EB is however a serious competitor for Terraformed and often easier, if you don't have 1a terrain. Faster building of improvments does you not much good if their yields are poor. Plus that you can follow either VoP or Edenism and don't get sucked into the planetary conflict early.
Maybe I've just been unlucky and done worse in my terraformer games and gotten attacked very early.
Are the highlands better for Terraformers just because of the improved windmill energy?
What's 1a terrain?
Pfeffersack
Deity
Fungus can spread here only after the FC passes 60, something which is close to impossible ATM (I reached sometimes around 55 in the older versions) and will still only happen later, even if AIs learn how to play a Hybrid strategy. So settling on highlands just means that you are save from fungal blooms and popping up native life (can still wander in of course). The "rocky" setting for climate may produce more of it (but I'm not sure, might create just more rigdes as well)
What's 1a terrain?
I just meant "excellent" terrain, usually a combination of rainy tiles with enough hills for me, if I want to run a Terraforming strategy.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
So here's a start on a Beginner's guide to Planetfall. I copied a few sections out of the datalinks. I have more to add, but I got tired of working on it for today
Great!
Some small corrections:
You start with a Supply Pod, not a Supply Crawler.
On the section re Planet Attitude, I refer to the bases' red/green heart value as the base's Planet Value. And to the general factionwide value as the player's Planet Attitude. From the next patch onwards, I refer to the sum of all accumulated bases' planet values throughout the game as a faction's Psi Potential.
It would be useful to have seperate symbols to better recognize these different concepts, but alas, I have no inspiration what they could be.
Open the TextPlanetfall.xml and search for TXT_KEY_CONCEPT and TXT_KEY_HINT.
Give you an example, Pfeffersack, that is absolutely hard-wired into the AI. My cruisers, , cruisers, mark you, with Psi defence, always get attacked by at least two Sealurks or mind-worms and always sink! Always! There is simply no possibility of them gaining experience that way. The only strategy would then seem to be that you wait til you have enough tech, fairly advanced tech, for a viable navy; that doesn't seem right to me.
There is simply no possibility of them gaining experience that way. The only strategy would then seem to be that you wait til you have enough tech, fairly advanced tech, for a viable navy; that doesn't seem right to me.
GeoModder
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2005
- Messages
- 7,512
Give you an example, Pfeffersack, that is absolutely hard-wired into the AI. My cruisers, , cruisers, mark you, with Psi defence, always get attacked by at least two Sealurks or mind-worms and always sink! Always!
Strategy 101: if attacked by wolfpacks, sail out with wolfpacks.
Sure, you'll still lose a third to half your ships at first, but the survivors WILL gain experience.
Besides, with psi combat a more advanced (higher strength units) navy won't make a difference. The strength values are ignored, remember?
And carriers with scoutplanes are a must to get early warning.
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
About native sea life: It's also due to the fact that the AI is a bit water-shy - in other words: On the high seas, you bear the brunt of the native attacks alone on the ocean, as the AI doesn't kill them, so they just keep spawning.
If the naval AI gets better (like start guarding aquaformers more often), it should also decrease the severity of naval natives (though I still think that the cruiser line should get some bonuses against natives to cement their naval superiority role).
On the other hand, I think that the naval-land balance between native life is a bit strange, it does feel a bit wrong to see that there's more native life on water than on land (but Maniac plans to put some early land natives out there, so it may help with that balance a bit).
Cheers, LT.
If the naval AI gets better (like start guarding aquaformers more often), it should also decrease the severity of naval natives (though I still think that the cruiser line should get some bonuses against natives to cement their naval superiority role).
On the other hand, I think that the naval-land balance between native life is a bit strange, it does feel a bit wrong to see that there's more native life on water than on land (but Maniac plans to put some early land natives out there, so it may help with that balance a bit).
Cheers, LT.
slugwalk
Chieftain
In terms of early land natives, I'd like to see a bunch of mindworms at the beginning that don't enter your borders. That way you can't send out your colony pods without some protection.
A related thought: I'd like to see more fungus and native life on land than at sea for the whole game. I'm thinking perhaps making fungus spread faster than sea fungus, and make native life appear more often on land. I almost never see native mindworms,even when I leave the continent with most of the factions.
A related thought: I'd like to see more fungus and native life on land than at sea for the whole game. I'm thinking perhaps making fungus spread faster than sea fungus, and make native life appear more often on land. I almost never see native mindworms,even when I leave the continent with most of the factions.
