Planetfall

[Lord Tirian]

...and still they only have a 4.2 vs. 3.20 in many combats and often get killed if the terrain is bad.

Are you aware of the fact that combat against native life is Psi combat? It's supposed to be independent of the unit type.

The attacker's strength is always 3, the defender's 2 (3 if it's an immobile unit like the fungal tower). The only thing that can give you an edge are innate unit bonuses (like flame throwers), special abilities, promotions and terrain.

So, against native life, always try to be the attacker (to get the 3 against 2), try to keep units with the straight combat promotions that add strength around and equip them with the Psi attack special ability.

It does mean that you have to maintain a dedicated anti-native force, but it should make things considerably easier.

Cheers, LT.

 

[slugwalk]

Plus, I'm noticing that no matter what I've done, the longer the game goes, the newer units have little affect on native creatures. I've upgraded well promoted units to grave diggers and still they only have a 4.2 vs. 3.20 in many combats and often get killed if the terrain is bad. I'm not complaining; in SMAC natives where rarely a major threat later in the game. My issue is that there seems to be no appreciable advantage for the human player as the game progresses. Yes as Planet wakes up, things get worse, but the newer units seem to just keep pace with them. Plus with the lack of strong naval or air units or missiles, fungal towers off-shore continue to pump out fungal blooms on-shore.

Plus, it's not just Planet, but if I have to be worrying about 4-8 native lifeforms popping up every turn, I can't really attack any other human player very well can I? Now I don't to sound, "oh boo-hoo; Planet is mean to me!" but if you are going to take the terraform route, then you'd expect to have access to some nasty weapons against the lifeforms that more Planetphile factions wouldn't use.

The psi combat not being effected much by technological advance is the key feature of psi combat. That's what makes mindworms much scarier than Civ4's bears. I think the advantage of the terraformers against native life should just be that they have greater production capabilities than the Hybrids, so they can produce enough units to both counter Planet, and the armies of their enemies. Unfortunately, I think the way the game is currently balanced, the terraformers never manage to get much more production ability than the hybrids.

 

[slugwalk]

I want to make sure everyone knows about the Planetfall forum with all the other threads: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=278. It took me a while to find out it existed.

 

[arkham4269]

Arkham, are you aware you can promote Armor, Mass Drivers, Behemoths and Cruisers with the Range 1/2 special abilities which give them a ranged strike ability.

I do now. Most of the abilities I have been taking is either the enhance native attack/defense or movement to help get around to deal with fungal blooms. I guess I need to look more closely at the different promotions. I hadn't realized you've really started to go the SMAC route of using promotions to change units. Oh, how come only infantry change to APC's when you give them the APC promotion? I would think that if you are going to have units be 'created' mostly through promotions, then the graphics should change.

Are you aware that fungal blooms cannot occur if you clean the area around your bases of all fungus?

Well considering that the ships are so nerfed that I simply cannot build enough of them to attack the 4 or so blooms off my coast. Plus, while I had the Terraforming civic (which I've dropped for numerous reasons) kept my area free of fungus (as did my formers) I still get natives showing up in my territory and if I can't kill them fast enough, they generate fungus. Plus, right outside my territory is this big patch of fungus that has generate two fungal towers and the natives took 2 cities of the Hive. So these sites also send in lots of natives. Every time I get a group of troops together, above and beyond what I need for defense, I get some big native incursion and am forced to use those troops to 'put out fires' so to speak. I was finally able to crank out enough mind worms and spore launchers to take one of the native cities but considering how fast the natives spawn, I'm not sure how long I can hold it.

At least that's how it should be. I had someone report that they get native life spawns even without any fungus present, but I cannot replicate this.

I think I've had it happen to me once or twice. However, like I said, often times the fungal towers are one hex offshore and I think the worms and spore launchers bloom there and then move inland. Or maybe because the fungal tower is there, the natives spawn one tile away regardless if there is fungus or not. I mean I had natives showing up w/o fungus throughout the game this way. It wasn't till later in the game that when they spawned in my territory, they also created a fungus tile as well.

Again, it generally takes me 2 cruisers (if things go well) to kill a fungal tower and there are usually 2+ units that also need to be killed since after the first attack on the fungal tower, you have to kill the rest of the stack to get at it again. But even after you win, swarms of native life come out of the fog of war and kill any ships you have left. Attacking with n-jets just gets them shot down by the fungal towers. After all that, you get another fungal bloom and tower in a few turns and so you can't keep up. I've noticed the Hive (which has mostly coastal cities) seems to be doing nothing but crank out ships...which probably explains why they lost two cities to the natives. I mean I simply cannot afford to have my coastal cities (which I don't have many of) do nothing but crank out ships.

Again, I'm not complaining that the natives are too nasty. I just feel that even as I get new units, they don't seem to be any better than earlier units. I mean when I create a brand new grav-tank and it dies in it's first attack on a newly spawned mindworm, yet my old plasma thrower with a upgrade or two can kill the same type of mindworm w/only half damage...well it makes you kind of wonder.

 

[Lord Tirian]

...well it makes you kind of wonder.

Not really - new units aren't supposed to be better against native life - just read this!

Cheers, LT.

 

[arkham4269]

Not really - new units aren't supposed to be better against native life - just read this!

Cheers, LT.

While that clears it up, it still makes you wonder. In SMAC, the main component of the Planetlife's attack was psi causing mind-numbing fear. So when you get cyborgs, you'd expect some form of 'fear override' or some adrenaline booster or whatever you want to call it to counteract the psi attacks directed at them. Moreover, once you get to a certain tech level (which we almost have now) why bother with living fighters at all? Why not use robots? It's why I was commenting about missiles earlier: missiles don't feel fear.

I would think that hovertanks with teleview like current Predators and other weapons systems would be the way to go since armor can't go into fungus. Useless against humans but unless psionics can work via video, it would be an easy (and not that technological taxing) way to go. I mean USAF fighter pilots are starting to see the handwriting on the wall an know that their days in the cockpit are numbered for most tasks. It's cheaper to use teleview drones.

I mean I don't think it would take that much of an AI to set up a hovertank that would attack anything that moves faster than say the plant life moving in the wind or at least would have a alert that would enable a human operator to release them into combat mode.

 

[Maniac]

Missiles: Boy howdy when I'm wanting to attack the 10+ fungal towers in and around my territory, how I'm wishing for missiles! Plus it would be something that could be carried by subs.

I have been running around with the idea to include a Thermobaric Missile which would be especially effective against Fungal Towers.

I did remember another two issues I had. One was that sometimes units after being created would not become 'unstuck' after their movement was complete. You have to select another unit manually. The only other time I've seen this issue was was in relation to units of the Scions in FfH/FF/Orbis when in the Haunted Lands.

Could you please send me a save of just prior to encountering this?

Oh, how come only infantry change to APC's when you give them the APC promotion? I would think that if you are going to have units be 'created' mostly through promotions, then the graphics should change.

I have other priorities than changing those graphics. I mostly thought "Cool, I've proved the idea works! Now let's implement it fully sometime later..."

Plus, while I had the Terraforming civic (which I've dropped for numerous reasons) kept my area free of fungus (as did my formers) I still get natives showing up in my territory and if I can't kill them fast enough, they generate fungus. Plus, right outside my territory is this big patch of fungus that has generate two fungal towers and the natives took 2 cities of the Hive. So these sites also send in lots of natives. Every time I get a group of troops together, above and beyond what I need for defense, I get some big native incursion and am forced to use those troops to 'put out fires' so to speak. I was finally able to crank out enough mind worms and spore launchers to take one of the native cities but considering how fast the natives spawn, I'm not sure how long I can hold it.

I'd love see a screenshot of your tactical situation. Perhaps I can offer some ideas.
Did you just say you built Mind Worms and Spore Launchers though?? Seems like a bad idea to me if you have a negative Planet Attitude.

I think I've had it happen to me once or twice. However, like I said, often times the fungal towers are one hex offshore and I think the worms and spore launchers bloom there and then move inland. Or maybe because the fungal tower is there, the natives spawn one tile away regardless if there is fungus or not. I mean I had natives showing up w/o fungus throughout the game this way. It wasn't till later in the game that when they spawned in my territory, they also created a fungus tile as well.

Spawning showing up next to fungal plots is possible. If you get a spawn while there's no fungus around at all, please do tell me! (with a save of the turn just prior to the spawning)

teleview

I could add a Telecontrol special ability. Such an ability would make the unit vulnerable to hacking though. I sense a new probe team mission...

PS: Arkham, you never mentioned how you got Planetfall to work. Was UAC the problem?

 

[arkham4269]

PS: Arkham, you never mentioned how you got Planetfall to
work. Was UAC the problem?

Must have been since it works now. Funny thing though. I'm playing on my wife's machine because both my external and internal drive don't work on my laptop. Yet I can play Planetfall w/o the BTS CD in the drive! I found this out when I had left the Sid Meier's Railroads! CD in the drive. Is this a Vista thing?

I'll try to get you those screenshots and save. I switched to a new game w/the Gaians (whom I normally) play and mostly the native problems I have is they are spawning on the border between me and the Believers and they sometimes attack me instead. However I can easily run a few turns of my old game.

I do find it odd that the natives can take over cities; you'd think they have to raze them.

As for the units getting stuck, it seems to happen when I choose a certain special ability as the first option out of the 2 I'm allowed. It happens enough that I should be able to get a save pretty easy.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Yet I can play Planetfall w/o the BTS CD in the drive! I found this out when I had left the Sid Meier's Railroads! CD in the drive. Is this a Vista thing?

It's the effect of the latest 3.19 patch for BTS!

Cheers, LT.

 

[arkham4269]

It's the effect of the latest 3.19 patch for BTS!

Cheers, LT.

Do you know if that applies to all Civ mods and base game? If so I need to load it all up and then I can at least play Civ on my other machine!

 

[Pfeffersack]

I do find it odd that the natives can take over cities; you'd think they have to raze them.

Taking them over and starting to produce new native units by conventional building isn't perfect atmospheric wise (however, it might be the healthiest variant for balance), but simply razing isn't as well (also I share Maniac's view that base razing - or just destroying most buildings inside a base upon capturing it - should play less of a role, maybe retricted to the U.N charta theme)

If native life wouldn't be so strong already, I would suggest a kind of draft mechanism for native life in bases captured by the planet...in each round (maybe just with a certain probability) the base is under the planets control one population unit gets converted into a native life unit until base is down to 1. Repeats, if base should grow under native life again. This process would simulate the mindworms mainly going for the population, while structures are mainly left untouched. It would also encourage you to quickly recapture your bases...

Edit:

Do you know if that applies to all Civ mods and base game? If so I need to load it all up and then I can at least play Civ on my other machine!

Yes, however not all mods have been yet converted to work with v3.19...

 

[arkham4269]

I have other priorities than changing those graphics. I mostly thought "Cool, I've proved the idea works! Now let's implement it fully sometime later..."

That's cool; since you seem to be well on your way of simulating less units/more variety through promotions like the original SMAC, I was just wondering if this was something that was going to be continued.

 

[arkham4269]

Taking them over and starting to produce new native units by conventional building isn't perfect atmospheric wise (however, it might be the healthiest variant for balance), but simply razing isn't as well (also I share Maniac's view that base razing - or just destroying most buildings inside a base upon capturing it - should play less of a role, maybe restricted to the U.N charta theme)

Well I could see it in the sense that the city still exists since the mindworms might not actually destroy stuff, just kill all the people and thus a lot of the infrastructure is there to be retaken. I was just thinking the city shouldn't be used by the natives to create more natives.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Do you know if that applies to all Civ mods and base game? If so I need to load it all up and then I can at least play Civ on my other machine!

Yep - knock yourself out with playing BTS (+mods)!

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

If native life wouldn't be so strong already, I would suggest a kind of draft mechanism for native life in bases captured by the planet...in each round (maybe just with a certain probability) the base is under the planets control one population unit gets converted into a native life unit until base is down to 1. Repeats, if base should grow under native life again. This process would simulate the mindworms mainly going for the population, while structures are mainly left untouched. It would also encourage you to quickly recapture your bases...

That's exactly what I have in mind.

 

[darkedone02]

i'm getting huge lag spikes when i build a city underwater... even when I build something too in that city as well.

 

[Maniac]

Patch 10c for Planetfall, the Alpha Centauri total conversion mod for Civ4 BtS, has been released. This patch needs to be applied on top of the main v10 file of Planetfall. It breaks savegames from any previous version or patch of Planetfall.

Many new graphics by Lord Tirian have been included in this patch. On gameplay, no major changes have been included, but there's a long list of tweaks which should lead to a better experience.



Changelog:

1. Garland Crater landmark added. Graphics by Lord Tirian.
2. New Sealurk unit graphics by Lord Tirian.
3. Base names and Facility pedia quotes added, by Keeper_GFA.
4. Rare DNA resource graphics by Lord Tirian.
5. Cloudbase unit graphics by Lord Tirian.
6. The Psi Gate building graphic now has a psionic glow over it. Thanks to Lord Tirian.
7. Dimensional Gate building graphics by Lord Tirian.
8. Sea bases now have a graphic, thanks to GeoModder and woodelf.
9. Sea bases no longer start with a free Pressure Dome.
10. The Sea Colony Pod unit costs 120 minerals again.
11. New Trench graphics by Lord Tirian.
12. Trenches now appear on the coast instead of one plot into the ocean.
13. Submarines no longer get an inherent combat bonus on Trench terrain.
14. New Deep Pressure Hull Special Ability for Submarines: gives +25% on & vs. Trench, and makes the Sub invisible while on Trench.
15. The Subsea Trunkline facility now provides +1 mineral on Trenches instead of on all water plots.
16. Units can pick the 'Light' special ability, which halves the unit's maintenance cost, but removes all remaining special ability slots.
17. The Repair Bay special ability requires Biogenetics.
18. Transports no longer start with the Medic I promotion for free.
19. The Stealth special ability requires Magnetic Acceleration.
20. The Range1 special ability now requires Kinematics instead of Cybernetics.
21. Treaded units can now move on fungus, but they get a 50% combat penalty there.
22. Treaded units can't do ranged strikes while on fungus.
23. Bugfix: AI immobile units will use ranged strikes.
24. Bunkers get a +50% combat bonus versus Native Life.
25. Treaded units are now immune to collateral damage from Bunkers.
26. The Fungal Tower unit now only has a 20% interception chance, but gets a 100% combat bonus against air units, and is immune to collateral damage from them.
27. Building a Perimeter Defense in a base creates a Bunker unit there. If that Bunker is destroyed, the Perimeter Defense is destroyed as well.
28. Perimeter Defense building cost doubled to 100 minerals.
29. Carrier units start with one free special ability slot.
30. Spartan units no longer get a +10% combat bonus. Instead they get +1 first strike, +10% withdrawal chance, +5% bombard, +10% healing in neutral and enemy territory, and a 40% protection against collateral damage.
31. The Recycling Tanks facility now gives one Doctor specialist slot.
32. The Children' Creche no longer gives a Doctor slot, but now provides +1 happiness instead.

 

[Cylnar]

9. Sea bases no longer start with a free Pressure Dome.
10. The Sea Colony Pod unit costs 120 minerals again.
11. New Trench graphics by Lord Tirian.
12. Trenches now appear on the coast instead of one plot into the ocean.
15. The Subsea Trunkline facility now provides +1 mineral on Trenches instead of on all water plots.

Great mod, been playing this for a while now (mostly while waiting for a 3.19 update for Orbis/FFH2). A couple questions on these changes though, based partly on my admittedly few-years-old memories of SMAC(X).

1) Sea bases: Seems to me they started with a free pressure dome in the original game, that being what allowed them to survive on the sea floor. That also being the main reason sea colony pods cost so many more minerals to build than regular colony pods. Of course, if I recall correctly, pressure domes served a different purpose than adding an extra specialist.

2) Trenches are deep-sea features, not coastal features and I seem to think that's the way they had it in the original game, too. I don't remember exactly how the subsea trunkline worked in the original game but unless most or all coast terrain is now trench (geographically implausible) you've provided a substantial nerf to the effectiveness of this building in this game. Especially for sea bases and especially for hybrids (who tend to frown on more Planet-unfriendly means of gaining production).

Other than that, looks great and I look forward to playing!

 

[Orientsee]

I've downloaded the Planetfall mod but it doesn't run. I open Civ4 and then go to the scenario section. I can see Planetfall. I click on it, nothing seems to happen for a while and then I get an error message as Civ4 closes down complaining. I've got the latest patch installed 3.19 and the latest Planetfall. I haven't a clue as to what I am doing wrong.

Orientsee

 

[Pfeffersack]

I've downloaded the Planetfall mod but it doesn't run. I open Civ4 and then go to the scenario section. I can see Planetfall. I click on it, nothing seems to happen for a while and then I get an error message as Civ4 closes down complaining. I've got the latest patch installed 3.19 and the latest Planetfall. I haven't a clue as to what I am doing wrong.

Orientsee

From the main menu, go "Advanced, "Load a mod", "Planetfall" (or use the desktop shortcut for Planetfall v10, if you have created one during installation)...then start a custom game. Starting it as a scenario isn't possible, AFAIK. Or have you tried exactly that?