strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Quests??
Does it go my how many are presently there, or if you add them to "each other" does it matter??
Does it go my how many are presently there, or if you add them to "each other" does it matter??
Players Guide to the C2C Combat Mod - Size Matters game option.
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Eeek! I'd not considered quests... I'm not sure what the answer is because I'm not sure if it counts the amount of times you build a unit or the amount of units you have to qualify the quest. I suspect it's the amount of units you have and if that's the case then those quests should probably be made to not be valid under this option. Do quests have an option trigger or a NOT on option trigger in the xml?
Faustmouse
Deity
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Some have python trigger that doesn't allow them to trigger under OCC. Since quests always have a python trigger, this line could easily be included.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I was just thinking and wondering also about all the "healers" we have also, does the +'s go UP or stay the same if you add more to the same unit??
If the same then it would make no sense to have a healer with the extra size matters stuff?? Or would it later on in the game when it upgrades??
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
That's odd... for those reasons, healers are not supposed to be able to merge or split. I'll have to take a look and see why they are currently able to!
EDIT: Hmph... someone removed the Health Care unitcombat from the core unitcombatinfos.xml file and didn't properly include the <bCannotMergeSplit>1</bCannotMergeSplit> tag use in the module they're in. Fixed.
So to add more, any units with property manipulators should not be allowed to merge or split and healing doesn't have any more or less effect on the merged or split units either (another reason healers shouldn't be merging or splitting.)
Now, interestingly enough, Strike Teams, simply due to the nature of how strike teams must operate, also may not merge or split but THEY are the big thorn in the foot for healer units so the Monk is useful as an assassin guard. Assassins at that stage of the game will attack healers first in the stack which makes the very capable Monk defender a problem for them. Since neither can merge nor split they can't get an edge up on one another through size matters manipulations (except for quality one ups.)
EDIT: Hmph... someone removed the Health Care unitcombat from the core unitcombatinfos.xml file and didn't properly include the <bCannotMergeSplit>1</bCannotMergeSplit> tag use in the module they're in. Fixed.
So to add more, any units with property manipulators should not be allowed to merge or split and healing doesn't have any more or less effect on the merged or split units either (another reason healers shouldn't be merging or splitting.)
Now, interestingly enough, Strike Teams, simply due to the nature of how strike teams must operate, also may not merge or split but THEY are the big thorn in the foot for healer units so the Monk is useful as an assassin guard. Assassins at that stage of the game will attack healers first in the stack which makes the very capable Monk defender a problem for them. Since neither can merge nor split they can't get an edge up on one another through size matters manipulations (except for quality one ups.)
KMRblue1027
Deity
Is there any way to check pre-constuction of units of what group size they come out as? I've seen really weird occurrences already with scouts and hunter units come out with group size 2 and are gimpped in strength while Neanderthal Warriors are coming out with size 4 (But with their full strength) when all other prehistoric units have been 3.
I'm sorry if this has been answered already but it's been a few months since I've played and the mod doesn't really have any good inbuilt guides yet.
Edit: Worker type units seem to have the ability to split and merge does this have any net effect or no?
I'm sorry if this has been answered already but it's been a few months since I've played and the mod doesn't really have any good inbuilt guides yet.
Edit: Worker type units seem to have the ability to split and merge does this have any net effect or no?
When you press either Shift, Ctrl or Alt (can't remember which) while hovering over the unit, you can see their groupe volume.
That said, base Group Volume shouldn't matter too much (except to know how much you may split/merge the unit), it's not because a unit has a lower GV that it has a lower strength (it is usually balanced by a higher Combat Quality).
A few units (like Hunters or Scouts) were "toned down" along with their groupe volume, but that's because they were considered a bit too good, it's more a matter of balancing rather than something directly linked with Size Matters.
It makes them slower or faster to build improvement; the net effect on building improvements is 0 (splitting your worker in 3 and making the 3 resulting units work on an improvement will result in the improvement to be built at the same speed as if you hadn't split).
So, you shouldn't worry about splitting or merging workers 99% of the time, unless you look for very specific strategies (finishing several watchtowers at the same time...) or want to decrease micromanagement by having few "superworkers".
KMRblue1027
Deity
Thanks for the quick rundown, already in love with just the possibilities of this gamemode. You might want to prevent the gatherers from being split though, it allows you to get three improvements for 1 (or more I didn't check the size realizing how OP this was early).
You shouldn't be able to build an improvement that consume the unit if the unit is not at its base Groupe Volume - if you can do it, it's a bug...
KMRblue1027
Deity
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah, pretty much though I've been thinking... it's more about how it would then interact with Fight or Flight. With any Combat Mod option I somewhat assume the other Combat Mod options are also selected. If Fight or Flight isn't on then it IS a little imbalanced to have them come in with this diminishing offset so I've been considering a Replacement Entry for all of these diminished offsets that would adjust their combat classes if Fight or Flight is on - then the SM combat classes only make a difference if SM is on as well and that would make it so that if SM is on and ForF is off then they'd have the same core strengths as they would in the core mod.
I haven't had to use replacement entries on units yet and there have been some valid points made as to why to avoid such use of replacements unless the replacement mechanism is made to work more like an itemized WoC modular replacement which Alberts said he'd work on enabling at some point so I WAS going to wait on that but the discussion about adjusting replacement coding was a while ago and I'm kinda thinking it's not so likely to take place at this point. Maybe if I make some notes in the xml I can remind anyone making adjustments to these units to update the same adjustments to the duplicate replacement entry...
Are there really players that use one option but not the other? I'd expect someone who don't want complex combat mechanics to unckeck both, and those interested in advanced combat to have both options activated... Why not consider merging the two modmods into a single "Advanced combat mechanics" modmod rather than spending time to adress complex interactions between the two?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Don't wanna lose a player on one of these options because they don't like an element of another. I think currently StragegyOnly is an example. I'd think he'd like Size Matters but hate Fight or Flight. (He doesn't like units defensively withdrawing and ForF really doesn't work if Defensive Withdraw isn't on.) Noteably, HE was the one complaining about the strengths of those diminished offset units.
And without ForF with Defensive Withdraw, those units with diminished offset do just get kinda screwed in the deal because they don't have the mechanisms of survival and usefulness (strong withdrawal or pursuit but balanced to those they should be pursuing) that they were assumed to have when SM was setup.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
One thing I have ideas on is merging two units to enhance them but not necessarily for combat. A couple of examples
1) a diplomat and a missionary have the diplomat visibility but has missions of both units plus some extras. Can bribe a stack of barbarians to go bother someone else or maybe join you as religious fanatics.
2) Hunter/recon line unit join with dog line unit or raptor unit (not yet available) to improve their basic hunting or recon abilities.
There are other stuff I am contemplating with the evolving religions. Will these be possible if the Size Matters mod is off. I know that extra AI will be needed.
1) a diplomat and a missionary have the diplomat visibility but has missions of both units plus some extras. Can bribe a stack of barbarians to go bother someone else or maybe join you as religious fanatics.
2) Hunter/recon line unit join with dog line unit or raptor unit (not yet available) to improve their basic hunting or recon abilities.
There are other stuff I am contemplating with the evolving religions. Will these be possible if the Size Matters mod is off. I know that extra AI will be needed.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Size matters would not be a problem if off or on but there may be a logic issue with Volume in some cases.
What you're talking about is a gestalt unit. My suggestion would be to use the method that binds a Lord or Viceroy to a unit and use the promotion that goes with such a join. One of the two would have to be considered the primary unit while the others could 'join'. I've often thought exactly that about joining a canine unit to a hunter. One thing I might want to do with that on Size Matters would be enforcing that the joining unit be spit down to a solo unit volume OR be of exactly the SAME volume... one of the two depending on the intent.
You might be able to simply pull something off in python of course but where SM ramification concerns go we'll have to really think it through. Two units may be able to destroy themselves to recreate a gestalt unit that cannot be created any other way... I might want to, if we're going to do it that way, generate a gameoption that creates the mechanism for this and can thus be easily adapted into other gameoption setups like SM. The resulting gestalt unit would HAVE to be a whole new unit definition in this case if that's how you want to play it. Might be a neat thing that could be done and could lead to many OTHER gestalts like a Spearman merged with an Axeman...
What you're talking about is a gestalt unit. My suggestion would be to use the method that binds a Lord or Viceroy to a unit and use the promotion that goes with such a join. One of the two would have to be considered the primary unit while the others could 'join'. I've often thought exactly that about joining a canine unit to a hunter. One thing I might want to do with that on Size Matters would be enforcing that the joining unit be spit down to a solo unit volume OR be of exactly the SAME volume... one of the two depending on the intent.
You might be able to simply pull something off in python of course but where SM ramification concerns go we'll have to really think it through. Two units may be able to destroy themselves to recreate a gestalt unit that cannot be created any other way... I might want to, if we're going to do it that way, generate a gameoption that creates the mechanism for this and can thus be easily adapted into other gameoption setups like SM. The resulting gestalt unit would HAVE to be a whole new unit definition in this case if that's how you want to play it. Might be a neat thing that could be done and could lead to many OTHER gestalts like a Spearman merged with an Axeman...
Northstar1989
Warlord
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I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and actually, merging the workers makes them weaker/inferior at building things...
It's due to the way workrate overflow works- when an improvement is 99.9% done, and only needs 10 more "units" of workrate to finish, a worker split down to 1/9th size and one merged up 9 times can both complete it in 1 turn. The unit finishing the improvement will then have used its "move"- meaning that the 1/9th scale unit only spent 1/81st the effort of the 9x merged unit to complete the same improvement.
So, if you're actually looking to get the most work out of your workers, you should always split them up.
It also raises the question of maintenance costs... I forget, do workers follow the normal Size Matters rules for maintenance, where a 3x merged unit costs less maintenance than 3 normal-sized units? If so, then it appears splitting workers up gets you less wasted effort (overflow on improvements), but at the expense of higher unit maintenance costs...
I'm not sure I like any of this, of course, because often in real life the effect of many workers cooperating on manual labor projects is multiplicative rather than additive- for instance because 6 workers can carry heavier loads (such as timber or big stone blocks) working together than 2- who would have to waste time/effort splitting up things to be hauled into smaller pieces/chunks...
Regards,
Northstar
Northstar1989
Warlord
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It's DEFINITELY the number of units you "have".
I tested this when I got the "build X Triremes" quest before (but had already discovered Bronze Working- and thus could only build Quinquremes- this was before the changes I suggested to tech prereqs fix precisely this issue), and spawned in 15 Triremes using WorldEdit to see if it would consider the quest "completed".
Long story short, it did- the next turn it declared that I had successfully completed the quest, despite not having built a single Trireme, and gave me my choice of rewards...
Regards,
Northstar
Yes, you're right, splitting does give a slight advantage (maybe also from faster xp gain due to lower GV?), though this is balanced out by the higher maintenance cost as you mentioned
That said, I'm not sure how it works with civics that give you X free units.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
There can also be less efficiency in greater groups... imagine 100 men trying to screw in one lightbulb. And that's the kind of loss you mathematically explained. True that solo workers would pretty much suck without some help and it is somewhat dependant on the task but that's a little arbitrary. Very minor differences in efficiency either way the way the system currently works and yes, a little more upkeep for so many smaller units would balance out the slightly better efficiency of having man smaller group worker units.Yes, you're right, splitting does give a slight advantage (maybe also from faster xp gain due to lower GV?), though this is balanced out by the higher maintenance cost as you mentioned
Yeah, I figured... a small pain to address but it's on the list. Thanks for confirming though!
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