playing as japan - impact of bushido w/ regards to healing and battle?

[revelation216]

Being a big fan of Japanese culture and history after playing Shogun 2 (including the RotS DLC) for 400+ hours, I can't help but try Civ 5 and play as Japan till I beat King on Continents or Pangaea, standard speed.

How much less regularly do you have to heal units and how much of an impact does bushido make?

I mean, I've got the Kamikaze achievement on Steam so I know you can get a 10 HP kill with a 1 HP unit, but it still seems my units are dying more than I expected and it's difficult to tell whether they are fighting at full strength?

Do they get this ability when defending ranged attacks? Maybe not, which could be why I lose my units a lot.

 

[Udey1]

Bushido is better when it is used by the AI than by a human player. Risking damaged units in battle doesn't benefit the player. The higher the difficulty the more of a kill ratio you will need compared with the AI to succeed in warfare. Risking damaged units in combat because of this trait doesn't mesh with that goal.

Damaged units need to go to the rearguard to heal. Bushido encourages the opposite.

The AI, who doesn't use regrouping/retreat tactics very much, benefits greatly from the trait. Even their chipped units become difficult to kill.

 

[vexing]

in the war academy there is a lengthy mechanics of combat article that may help explain things...

basically a non japanese unit suffers a combat penalty that reduces their damage output by about 10% per 2 damage. japan doesn't have this; a 1 hp unit will do the same damage as it would at 10 hp

this only indirectly gives the units greater survivability. for how that works see the death section of that article

 

[malitano]

I play Japan exclusively. Bushido is useful against barbarians at the start of the game and ranged/naval units where you can keep them firing so long as they are not 1 turn away from destruction.

I don't like to risk damage units in a land battle but it helps considerably when you are defending or turtleing.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

It's a great ability but I wouldn't risk units just because they'll fight at full strength regardless of their health. Make use of Bushido only when necessary for victory.

 

[Monthar]

As others have said, you don't want to attack when they're low on health just to take advantage of the trait. However, when attacking at full health and taking damage in the attack this trait does mean they're more likely to survive a counter attack on the AI's turn.

Example:
Your unit's attack only deals 9 damage and takes 4. The AI uses a promotion to instantly heal that unit and counter attacks on its turn. Your unit takes another 4 damage dropping it to 2, but because it fights at full strength it did 9 damage to the AI unit. Without the Bushido trait that unit probably would have been killed since it would have been defending with a penalty due to only having 6 health left at the end of your turn. So now you can back that unit off to heal and have a different unit finish off that weakened AI unit.

 

[vexing]

Without the Bushido trait that unit probably would have been killed since it would have been defending with a penalty due to only having 6 health left at the end of your turn.

this isn't how combat works; damaged units do not take more damage in attacks, they just deal less damage.

the way bushido can help saving a unit happens where both units could potentially be dying. for example a 2 hp warrior attacks your 1 hp warrior in open terrain; without bushido about 78% of the time your warrior will die, bushido more than reverses it and only 17% of the time your warrior will die.

 

[The Pilgrim]

vexing, please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought I know how this works, but I've got confused somewhere between this thread and combat article. So just to be sure.

I thought bushido unit takes the same amount of damage as non-bushido unit does, and only inflicts damage as it was at full health.

So basically for attacking bushido unit to survive 100% of the time following inequality must be true:
(attacker's HP - max taken) > (defender's HP - min inflicted). If both sides are equal defender survives.

Then, for example, if 4HP bushido warrior is attacking 5HP warrior he's supposed to inflict 9-4 (6 approximate) damage and to take 6-2 (4 approximate).
If he takes an average 4 damage and inflicts an average 6 damage he ends up with 0XP, but defender ends up with -1HP and dies.

Non-bushido 4HP warrior takes the same 6-2 damage and inflicts also 6-2 damage, not 9-4. Thus if he takes and average 4 damage and inflicts an average 4 damage he ends up with 0HP, but the defender ends up with 1HP and your warrior is the one that dies.

 

[MadDjinn]

I'm hoping you mean hit points and not experience.

otherwise, yes, Bushido only ensures that the damage you do (be it defending against melee attacks or attacking with your units) is always calculated as if you were at full health.

Bushido fails when you're getting assaulted by ranged attackers. This is primarily due to the fact that you won't damage the other unit. Ranged units have a minimal 1 damage, so your units die eventually.

otherwise, yeah, don't attack with bushido melee units if the damage you're going to take will put you within 1 HP of dying, due to the random actual damage you'll receive.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I'm hoping you mean hit points and not experience.

Thanks. Fixed.

And thanks for clearing the fog. That's what I though.

 

[vexing]

(attacker's HP - max taken) > (defender's HP - min inflicted). If both sides are equal defender survives.

that equation is strange... min and max don't really play a part, it's whatever damage is actually done.
just imagine units can go to negative hp, then for the attacker to survive after combat this must be true:
attacker's hp > defender's hp

bushido helps because of the greater damage dealt (due to for example no 60% penalty at 2 or 1 hp). this makes it significantly more likely they end up on the winning side of this equation compared at low hp compared to any other civ.

if you get a strong enough unit you can fully exploit this, like a japanese rifleman with appropriate promotions can guarantee kill full hp pikeman even from 1hp (about a 2.7x ratio), other civs need closer to an infantry vs pikeman situation (a 3.7x ratio).

 

[The Pilgrim]

that equation is strange... min and max don't really play a part, it's whatever damage is actually done.

Why is it strange? Don't you need to end up with more HP than the defender in the worst case scenario to guarantee a kill?

 

[vexing]

my bad. i skimmed past the 100% survival qualifier in my initial read.
it looks like you have it figured out.

 

[Bamboocha]

The Bushido ability combined with the autocracy tree (and especially populism) means that a wounded Japanese unit does more damage than a fully healed one, right?

 

[The Pilgrim]

The Bushido ability combined with the autocracy tree (and especially populism) means that a wounded Japanese unit does more damage than a fully healed one, right?

No. They don't stack. I thought so too, but recent check proved otherwise. 10HP is your max. Good thing though. Something would be seriously broken if wounded units had inflicted more damage than those at full health.

 

[revelation216]

There's a policy you can take to get 33% more damage when wounded I think? Pretty sure it's in Autocracy.

 

[vexing]

The Bushido ability combined with the autocracy tree (and especially populism) means that a wounded Japanese unit does more damage than a fully healed one, right?

i bet the autocracy article in the war academy contains this info (and the answer: no)

 

[apocalypse105]

Its more of a defencive capability if a enemy atacks you and you are not at full strenght you will deal the full damage as result you can counter strike verry hard

So play like you would do like every other civ and get weaked unit out of the fronline and heal them up... The benefit from playing as japan is that when you're opponents atacks you weakend units you can easy counter them..