Playing Askia

[The Pilgrim]

The moment they added Spain into the game Songhai became obsolete. Mandekalu barely qualifies as a Unique Unit vs other civs Ranged Knights or Spains Mandekalu+++ unique unit.

I disagree. I'll take Songhai UA over Spanish UA any day. If we look at three unique features combined, Songhai is still stronger, in my opinion. Although adding faith NW balanced that a bit.

There's still about 10 civs I just dont play. I might never get the 'win a game with all the civs' achievement purely out of other civs remaining so interesting.

Same here. So many civs I barely play or don't play at all. The list to choose from is too long. Maybe instead of adding civs in the next expansion Firaxis would take some of the existing ones away? That would level playing field for us.

 

[apocalypse105]

Do people forget the unique knight?

:Mandekalu Cavalry
Powerful Medieval Mounted Unit, weak to Pikemen. Only the Songhai may build it. This Unit is not penalized when attacking Cities, unlike the Knight which it replaces.

This is one of the most powerful horse unit in the game . You can conquer a lot of cities until someone gets rifles or cavalry.

Mandekalu cavalry + siege + composite (crosbows) can conquer the world




goal: going to chivalry as fast as possible and found a religion.


1 use early archers and warriors to pick off some barb cambs

2 Built the National college as fast as possible . and expand to 3 cities
Going philosophy fast is key here it will give you you're unique temples for faith and culture to finish liberty faster and get you're religion going.
(Instead of going to poety and drama to get culture gives you time )


3 go liberty and finish it quickly so you can get a free great scientist to get a accedemy( I thinx madjinn did this in his beyond the momument lets play with the mongols)

4 go straight to chivalry


After that you're unique knights will conquer a lot of lands because it has no penalty against cities

Its simple as that


Don't bother about education.(Until chivalry)

basicly you're tech path:

Potery/ anibal husbandry -) archery /luxury techs(a start with calender resources helps) / philosophy/horseback riding/ onstruction

Make sure you have built enough horseman before reaching chivalry so you can upgrade them by selling luxuries (Keep a stack of gold for upgrades)

/ Going straight to Chivalry after that machinery

 

[kirbdog]

I played a game as Askia with my wife today. Two players, peaceful game, no AI civs. I found that the extra gold from camps was invaluable without having AI civs to use as ATM machines. I haven't played competitive multiplayer, but I suppose the same idea may apply.

 

[JanghanHong]

Songhai is fun, I should play with them again. It's the one warmonger that's good with Tradition, Open with honor, and then clear barbs, and buy 3 settlers to put down 3 cities in good locations, open tradition, and time your legalism for 4 free mud pyramid mosque that will guarantee you a religion, and then conquer and puppet the world, if you open piety, your puppets will definitely build mud pyramid mosque too. Happiness should be taken care of using the religion.

 

[BlackWizard]

Songhai is fun, I should play with them again. It's the one warmonger that's good with Tradition, Open with honor, and then clear barbs, and buy 3 settlers to put down 3 cities in good locations, open tradition, and time your legalism for 4 free mud pyramid mosque that will guarantee you a religion, and then conquer and puppet the world, if you open piety, your puppets will definitely build mud pyramid mosque too. Happiness should be taken care of using the religion.

Pyramid mosques are religious buildings. You wont get them from legalism

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Pyramid mosques are religious buildings. You wont get them from legalism

it replaces a temple now but because it provides culture has this been tested? i thought culture buildings were defined by what they provided regardless of designation. i think you get free Wats from legalism even though they replace unis.

 

[JanghanHong]

Pyramid mosques are religious buildings. You wont get them from legalism

You totally get mud pyramid mosque if your city built monument, and shrine when you adopt legalism, the same people who don't do this are the ones who think Songhai is underpowered. Because of so much early money, you can buy all your shrines, monuments and settlers too, guranteeing you a pantheon and eventually a religion with free +8 faith and +8 culture that you can do before turn 80.


I tried this just now, open with tradition, build warriors, open honor, bust encampments, use the money to buy library to slingshot to philosophy, save money to buy 3 settlers and settle them immediately after national college, when you settle 3 cities, buy shrine and monument with the money you saved up and then adopt legalism.


One of the strongest starts ever, you guys should try this. The only caveat I have with this is that MPM is already maintenance free, so you aren't exactly saving money, but that means your puppets who will build MPMs are cheaper.

 

[steveg700]

You totally get mud pyramid mosque if your city built monument, and shrine when you adopt legalism, the same people who don't do this are the ones who think Songhai is underpowered.

Really? I'm not sure I would want a free mud mosque instead of a free amphitheater. The mosque is already maintenance-free, and the amphitheater has a specialist slot.

 

[steveg700]

Do people forget the unique knight?

:Mandekalu Cavalry
Powerful Medieval Mounted Unit, weak to Pikemen. Only the Songhai may build it. This Unit is not penalized when attacking Cities, unlike the Knight which it replaces.

This is one of the most powerful horse unit in the game . You can conquer a lot of cities until someone gets rifles or cavalry. -

Sorry, but this is loopy. The Songhai knights are rubbish. If the nerf-removal promoted upwards, we could talk since that could eventually mean a tank without a city penalty. But it doesn't.

Mandekalu cavalry + siege + composite (crosbows) can conquer the world

Here's the problem with your equation: you could replace Mandekalu cavalry with just about any melee unit and get the same result. Hey, how about them plus some cannons? Or better yet, artillery?

Facetiousness aside, the strategy for taking cities should not rely heavily on slamming melee units into them. Melee units should simply be screening the ranged units until such a time as a lone foot soldier can stroll in through sundered walls to plant the flag.

 

[pkf]

Really? I'm not sure I would want a free mud mosque instead of a free amphitheater. The mosque is already maintenance-free, and the amphitheater has a specialist slot.

yes, really, unfortunately. id rather have the amphitheater too because of the artist slot. culture is usually the bottleneck, while faith is not.

 

[JanghanHong]

You know what? I tried the same map again and I think you guys are right, ampitheatre is better, and it's often better to hard build the mud pyramid mosque... but it makes the strategy stronger, with Askia, you have a reason to delay legalism since you are putting some points in honor, forget about National college as well, put up 4 quick cities, hard-build monument, and then pull legalism once you reached philosophy to get 4 free ampitheatres. You can build NC afterwards. This is really strong since you can complete tradition as fast as if you didn't go honor, and with honor's +1 happiness and +2 culture per garrison, you can make sure your new cities are expanding.




Songhai is quickly becoming my civ-to-go for tall domination, domination is fun, but I don't like how you almost have to take liberty, but with Songhai, you don't have to.

 

[sufficiency]

I feel that if Mandekalu Cavalry had 5 move instead of 4 Askia would be a lot stronger (and more fun to play). Not utterly broken (*cough* Arabia *cough*), but a LOT stronger.

 

[ense7en]

Sorry, but this is loopy. The Songhai knights are rubbish. If the nerf-removal promoted upwards, we could talk since that could eventually mean a tank without a city penalty. But it doesn't.


Here's the problem with your equation: you could replace Mandekalu cavalry with just about any melee unit and get the same result. Hey, how about them plus some cannons? Or better yet, artillery?

Facetiousness aside, the strategy for taking cities should not rely heavily on slamming melee units into them. Melee units should simply be screening the ranged units until such a time as a lone foot soldier can stroll in through sundered walls to plant the flag.

This is ridiculous.

Mandy Cavs are awesome.

Apparently you have a set idea on how to conquer the world, but that doesn't make you right.

Their extra movement makes them far more useful than melee units with two tiles of movement.
Pillage and attack cities works very well.
And when upgraded to Calvalry they are still useful, just less so against cities.

But that time you may very well have conquered most everyone though.

And the bolded part is what has made G&K rather boring for rushes...build tons of archers, upgrade them, rush people.
Their are many way to capture a city.
The idea you are promoting is just your opinion, nothing else.

 

[tetley]

There's a certain technology at the bottom of the tech tree that you get not long after you get cavalry. Won't say what, but it involves blowing up things and hurling projectiles long distances, 3 tiles away.

Usually I let my UU's remain UU's just a little bit beyond their prime. If I have access to Cavalry, okay; I don't have to pay money to upgrade them right off. I have that option. I may need that money before long to upgrade some things that go boom-boom.

 

[steveg700]

This is ridiculous.

Mandy Cavs are awesome.

Apparently you have a set idea on how to conquer the world, but that doesn't make you right.

Their extra movement makes them far more useful than melee units with two tiles of movement.
Pillage and attack cities works very well.
And when upgraded to Calvalry they are still useful, just less so against cities.

But that time you may very well have conquered most everyone though.

And the bolded part is what has made G&K rather boring for rushes...build tons of archers, upgrade them, rush people.
Their are many way to capture a city.
The idea you are promoting is just your opinion, nothing else.

You promote the misconception that opinions are all as subjective as "I hate onions" or "blue is my favorite color". Opinions can in fact be supported by strong arguments. Or undermined by weak ones.

In the case above, you don't really speak to anything special about the Mandys. Any mounted unit has an advantage over infantry at pillaging. A Mandy promoted to cavalry is just plain ol' cavalry.

As to the effectiveness of wearing down cities with ranged units versus smashing into them with melee, that's about as objective as observations can get.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Manducavs upgraded to cavalry are not just plain ol' cavalry, but an awesome cavalry with march, blitz, charge and what not and without penalties attacking across rivers. So yeah, they aren't bad at all. But they were beasts in vanilla and I kinda miss that beastiness.

 

[steveg700]

Manducavs upgraded to cavalry are not just plain ol' cavalry, but an awesome cavalry with march, blitz, charge and what not

Say what? They don't get any of that.

Oooh, you mean they can have the exact same promotions any other plain ol' mounted unit could earn. They're "awesome" because they're the same as everybody else.

Well, that's a canard.

 

[The Pilgrim]

No, they are not the same. They don't have penalty vs cities and across rivers. For these reasons you actually might use them unlike regular knights. And since you're also more likely to take Honor, they'll gain more XP. But feel free to keep hating them if that's what makes you happy.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

No, they are not the same. They don't have penalty vs cities and across rivers. For these reasons you actually might use them unlike regular knights. And since you're also more likely to take Honor, they'll gain more XP. But feel free to keep hating them if that's what makes you happy.

they lose those bonuses on upgrading to cav so they become the same as any other cav. the fact that you used them heavily for a time and got them promos is the only thing theyll have vs making new cav.

 

[steveg700]

Exactly, Hammer.

I already addressed the worth (or lack thereof) of "no penalty versus cities". Refusing to acknowledge an argument doesn't counter it. But to reiterate:

A 20 strength just doesn't compare well to the average strength of a city in the medieval era. The reason you don't wear a city down with longswordsmen is the same reason you shouldn't be doing it with mandys, penalty or no.

As for no penalties for attacking across rivers, the amphibious trait is part of the UA, not the UU. The only asset of the UU is the removal of a nerf whose application was pretty dubious in the first place.