Playing On Small Islands Etc.

[Drakarska]

The Colossus is MUCH stronger than the GLH on island maps, since the GLH will be close to obsolete when you discover other civs and the trade routes become intercontinental. Delaying corporations doesn't make much sense, because it gives an extra trade route in itself and you'll want the mining corp which is not far away. It's still a good wonder of course, giving each city two free commerce initially. But the colossus will give each city three or four times as much, and some cities even more. Anyway, to my point of the Inca being one of the most powerful island map civs, they can usually get both!

Pretty much agree there, add the Moai Statues to your specialist city and you got a definite powerhouse.

 

[Drakarska]

For me the eight best island civs are (in this order):

1. Inca/Dutch
3. English with Lizzy
4. Vikings
5. Carthage
6. Portuguese
7. Mali
8. Korea

Hmnn, pretty similar to what I was thinking.. Here's mine.

1. Inca/Dutch Slight edge to the Inca, industrial and they can do earlier amphib ops.
3. Vikings better UA, and they're better in the early era's.
4. Eng w/Liz Just a solid civ w/her. If she can survive to her era, she'll roll all over
you.
5. Portuguese Carrack rocks early game.
6. Carthage Lots of peeps wouldn't look twice at this civ on a water map. Mistake.
7/8. Korea/Mali I'd give the slight edge to Korea just as a personal preferance. I
almost always prioritize tech over gold.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm not getting the fascination with England - sure its a good Civ/leader combo but there are better leaders easily.

I also don't get what you mean about collosus/tGLH.
For a start the wonder provides 2 3 commerce routes (3 is average with intercontinental OB) for 6 commerce from city birth.
The collosus (while awesome, there's no denying that) requires 6 worked tiles a city to match it.
Moreover on an archipelago one really can't afford to delay ocean ships not for overseas transport, but for military defence and offence - enemy galleons will slaughter caravels for centuries until you can pick up destroyers.
Corps can be delayed for a loooong time - especially if you go for conquest in the rifle period.

Fake edit: ah it sounds like your thinking of continent/terra rather then archipelago.
While id probably argue all the more then its a different case entirely.
When do you normally find Civs??
My galleys are out exploring before my third settler, and even internal ICTR are 2c a pop.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I totally agree on carthage - though Im not getting the England fascination - sure it s a great Civ but only really good for rifle invasions, which your aversion to astro would likely obsolete.
On collosus - firstly I'm not certain we're talking about the same maps - I'm thinking archipelago, where near on every city is on a different continent.
The statement that mause me question if were talking the same map is the idea that ne ICTR aren't met until practically astro - which makes me think continents/terra/isolated hemisphere.
On archipelago glh is good for about 6 commerce a city - even if you don't get OB that's 4 commerce, which collosus takes a fair while to match.
Moreover the only time one obsoletes glh before collosus is when you've already one - astro is a vital military tech, especially in the rifle era. (Hence my England confusion...)

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Hmnn, pretty similar to what I was thinking.. Here's mine.

1. Inca/Dutch Slight edge to the Inca, industrial and they can do earlier amphib ops.
3. Vikings better UA, and they're better in the early era's.
4. Eng w/Liz Just a solid civ w/her. If she can survive to her era, she'll roll all over
you.
5. Portuguese Carrack rocks early game.
6. Carthage Lots of peeps wouldn't look twice at this civ on a water map. Mistake.
7/8. Korea/Mali I'd give the slight edge to Korea just as a personal preferance. I
almost always prioritize tech over gold.

Firstly gold multipliers are generally superior as they allow the raising of the science slider (Link:http://www.dos486.com/civ4/index/bank.shtml).
Ignoring that however: Mali is superior both on and off an archipelago because a) traits are better, b) unis are expensive and built sparingly while forges are wanted everywhere by the time unis would be being made, c) bonuses kick in earlier (both skirmishers and forges) and d)on archi, hwachas are harder to use (amphibians) and unis are harder/less wanted to be whipped.

You've missed Maya, Egypt (Ramesses), India (either), Darius,sury, and mehmed as well - most of whom id put before korea (and a bunch before mali too).

 

[Drakarska]

Liz is PHI/FIN, good combo on water maps, especially with GLH/COL. As I stated earlier, early game she's not as dangerous militarily as the others, but her traits make dangerous anyways. PHI means she's a GP machine compared to the others, and she'll have the gold to back it up. Mid-game is where she's an absolute terror, Redcoats and SOTL make her a military nightmare.
I usually don't play conquest VC ( and i'm only a MON player), so I can understand your confusion. That said, every single one of my water map games with Liz on the map turns into a nail biter once she hits her stride. Especially if your playing huge + maps with lots of civs.

 

[Drakarska]

Firstly gold multipliers are generally superior as they allow the raising of the science slider (Link:http://www.dos486.com/civ4/index/bank.shtml).
Ignoring that however: Mali is superior both on and off an archipelago because a) traits are better, b) unis are expensive and built sparingly while forges are wanted everywhere by the time unis would be being made, c) bonuses kick in earlier (both skirmishers and forges) and d)on archi, hwachas are harder to use (amphibians) and unis are harder/less wanted to be whipped.

You've missed Maya, Egypt (Ramesses), India (either), Darius,sury, and mehmed as well - most of whom id put before korea (and a bunch before mali too).

lol, actually I was responding to the 8 civs listed. As to korea, turtle is a nice ship, and korea is sci ( I prefer bulbing faster as long as my economy isn't in the red).

I'm not a big fan of the maya, as I consider their traits weak compared to others. Egypt, pretty much similar circumstances. India could be interesting, as I've never tried playing them on a water map, might give it a shot just to see how they do. Darius/Sury, I'd consider them mid-tier on a water based map, and i'd probably pick other civs as opposed to them. Mehmed, I've actually never played them before, so I cannot fairly evaluate them. Would be another interesting experiment.

 

[lymond]

l

I'm not a big fan of the maya, as I consider their traits weak compared to others..

I'm not familiar with you , but several things you've stated makes me think that your are talking about Civ 5.

Anyway, Mehmed is very strong on water maps. Everything about him screams agua!

Lizzy is good in any situation, but least of it due to Redcoats...whoopdee doo. It's simply due to the fact that she has 2 of the most powerful traits. If you know what you are doing, you are winning long before her UU is part of the equation. I don't necessarily consider her to be stronger on water maps, although, again, she can do well no matter the map.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

What's the turtle ship?

I understand that England has powerful traits, I just think that darius/pacal have more powerful ones for an water map.
There also seems to be some confusion on valuing of traits - on a water map I go:
FIN>ORG (presume high difficulty)>EXP>CRE>IND=PHI>SPI>IMP>CHA>AGG>PRO
roughly.
Important is the strong synergy ORG/FIN/EXP have with water map - as well as IND for snapping up water wonders, and CRE for the rexing/border control power.

What are SOTLs BTW?
I don't pursue conquest either, but more land is generally better for winning (I don't have the patience for science if I have it in the bag).

My thoughts on lizzie are generally strong but not really boosted on water maps compared to other options.

 

[calibur]

Why would you rate CRE highly? I would imagine it would be worth less on archipelago, not more.
SOTL- ship of the line

Lymond, you're on here pretty often, how do you not know Drakarska?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Because its very hard to get culture into low hammer cities, food is often second ring and no way to avoid it and high food cities are more likely to want libraries.
I'll agree with lymonds confusion - is it possible Drakarska plays modmods instead?

 

[Drakarska]

I'm not familiar with you , but several things you've stated makes me think that your are talking about Civ 5.

Anyway, Mehmed is very strong on water maps. Everything about him screams agua!

Lizzy is good in any situation, but least of it due to Redcoats...whoopdee doo. It's simply due to the fact that she has 2 of the most powerful traits. If you know what you are doing, you are winning long before her UU is part of the equation. I don't necessarily consider her to be stronger on water maps, although, again, she can do well no matter the map.

Lol, np. But I am familiar with you, at least in the forums. Your up there with TMIT and several other diety players, which I'm not even close to being able to do yet. Actually, I was refering to civ iv, but have no problem being corrected by those who have more experiance than I do.

I'll have to give Mehmed a try, because I've actually never played that civ in a game.

 

[Drakarska]

Why would you rate CRE highly? I would imagine it would be worth less on archipelago, not more.
SOTL- ship of the line

Lymond, you're on here pretty often, how do you not know Drakarska?

lol, because i'm not up there in the rarified air of diety? jk. I'm actually sorta intermittant on various threads, so it's understandable.

 

[Drakarska]

Because its very hard to get culture into low hammer cities, food is often second ring and no way to avoid it and high food cities are more likely to want libraries.
I'll agree with lymonds confusion - is it possible Drakarska plays modmods instead?

Yup. I already stated that I play mods as a preferance to vanilla BTS. Top 3 that I usually play are RI, HRW, and ROM AND. That may have something to do with our mis-communication.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah okay.
IMO people shouldn't comment about stuff mod related when in general as it tends to confuse the issue greatly.
(I can't believe I put modmods instead of straight mods - shows how much time I spend on FFH)


Because I havent played those I don't really know how they effect the issue.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Interesting that no one brought up Roosevelt yet. Industrious/Organised helps on water heavy maps. He can build the Great Lighthouse double time as his traits power both the buildings needed. Same with the Colossus. He can quickly build forges to improve whips on water heavy maps which are lacking in natural production. Being organised helps with maintenance as cities settled on landmasses without palace cost a tad more.

Unique Units and Unique Buildings? I had rather have a solid start and a solid leader than have a divine UU or UB.

 

[Drakarska]

Ah okay.
IMO people shouldn't comment about stuff mod related when in general as it tends to confuse the issue greatly.
(I can't believe I put modmods instead of straight mods - shows how much time I spend on FFH)


Because I havent played those I don't really know how they effect the issue.

Well, your certainly entitled to your opinion, but since the OP didn't really stipulate modded/unmodded, I trust you won't be too offended if I occasionally chime in now and then? Last time I checked, forum rules didn't really stipulate the exact particulars of commenting on threads pertaining to specific content comments .

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm not offended or trying to be a dick about it, I just generally assume unmodded until told otherwise.
I mean imagine if I started saying how the Calabim are strongest as they can grow to silly sizes and push out production on island maps?
Its obviously irrelevant, even though its still from the same base game.
If I mentioned that I was talking about FFH then that's cool because everyone can just ignore me.
But as is it was unclear which led to a bunch of confusion.

 

[Drakarska]

Certainly. I understand. But this is from post #3 of this thread;

Add England to your list there as well. 'Liz is PHI/FIN, and an absolute witch on water maps, especially if she can get to Astro quickly. Granted, the above civs have an advantage in the early game, but if she survives to the era, she balloons big time into a major power house.. Lol, at least in my games she does.
Inca can throw you a surprise as well, they seafaring trait ( at least in the mods that I play) and have a nasty habit of doing early quencha amphib ops that can ruin your whole day.

Bolded is fm my earlier post. No worries on my end. Simple communication is better IMO in resolving any potential issues as opposed to things degenerating into a troll fest.

I havn't played vanilla BTS in a very long time ( I just have a preferance for really good mods), so obviously I won't be totally accurate. But sometimes it's kind of fun to chime in with a different perspective just to liven things up a bit.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah I read that and ignored the comment because I obviously didnt understand it.
Yeah I also play mods (FFH based) mostly, I just try to seperate the two when commenting here.

I'm sorry if you consider this a troll fest

On topic: which building do people build first in coast dominated areas (generally) - lighthouse or granary?