Poland against the Soviets

[SKILORD]

In the early days of the Soviet Union Poland, fearing the emergence of a strong Russian state, Invaded the Ukraine to liberate it and nip the soviet powerhouse in the bud.

They failed, and the red army marched through Poland, the Climax of this war at Warsaw, where polish defenders found victory. If the polish had lost this war Lenin had every intention of sweeping through Germany and increasing efforts in Italy.

What if the Poles had won their campaign?

What if the Russians had succeded in their conquest of Europe?

 

[Furry Spatula]

I'm a bit rusty on my 20th century history, but how powerful was the Russian Army back then, as in was the civil war over with or was this part of the civil war, and those in Poland were White Russians (i believe the whites were against Lenin, but again I'm a bit rusty). Another question is, what year was this?

 

[stalin006]

errr.........i have never ever heard of such thing............poland attacking the newly formed USSR? the red army advncing to warsaw???? when was this? i tought poland was a friend of russia, thats why hitelr signed a non-agresion pact w/ stalin so germany had no red army marching to defend warsaw.........i might be wrong........but the only pre-ww2 invasion made by the USSR was againt finland, can u give us more fact plz ^_^ my lowly informed brain would apreciate it

well anyways.........if u are wondering what would had happened if the USSR had invaded russia try the Red alert2 game, no....red alert is a soviet invasion of europe and red alert2 is a soviet invasion of the US!!! ^_^ i love that game, after CIV3 of course

 

[Vrylakas]

It's a little more complicated than Skilord describes it but essentially after fighting a series of wars from 1918-1919 with the Ukrainians over borders, the Poles settled with Petlura (Ukrainian leader) and signed a sort of mutual protection treaty with them. The Ukrainians for obvious reasons feared the Russians. Lenin was still somewhat tied up with the Whites and the civil war, but had recently tried again to seize Ukraine. The Poles were actually pro-Lenin because the Whites wanted to restore the Russian Empire (i.e., re-conquer Poland and Finland) and the communists looked too weak to be able to threaten Poland. (Hey - we weren't psychic....)

Anyway, things came to a boil in summer 1920 (Pilsudski's famous book about this war was Rok 1920!/"The Year 1920!") and the Poles decided to pre-empt a Soviet invasion by starting one of their own. Initially they penetrated deeply into Soviet-occupied Byelorussia (modern Belarus) but things didn't go so well and soon the Soviet armies were driving deep into Poland. Poland desperately asked for Western help but the French sent exactly 1 man, General Weygand, and he complained that the Poles were ignoring his advice anyway. With their success the Soviets planned to march straight through Poland to Germany where the revolutionaries were steadily losing ground to the moderates (Ebert, Stresemann, etc.) and Lenin wanted to spark communist revolution in Central Europe. In 1919 both Bavaria and Hungary had briefly fallen to communists, but both had been repressed and Lenin feared by 1920 his world revolution was failing. (It was - thanks for that!) Liebknecht and Luxemburg were murdered, and Weimar Germany began to stabilize, hence the need for Soviet intervention.

Unfortunately for Lenin his armies were stopped by Pilsudski at a line along the Wisla/Vistula River ("Miracle of the Wisla") and the Soviet forces were driven back in a rout. fighting persisted for another several months but Warsaw and Moscow signed the Treaty of Riga in 1921 effectively ending Ukrainian independence by dividing Byelorussia and Ukraine between them.

This war had several consequences:

1. It preserved Poland, repulsing a IVth Russian Partition (at least until 1939).

2. It really alienated the Ukrainians and to a lesser extent Byelorussians who were looking to Poland to help preserve their independence from Moscow. This would be a major problem in 1939.

3. It alienated the West, who until 1920 still operated until the illusion that they were dictating events in the former German and Habsburg realms. Poland's snub of General Weygand and worse yet of Lord Curzon (Britain) left the country with very limited access to Western developmental aid and credits in the interbellum years. The 1921 border was much farther east than the West had drawn it, and they were infuriated that neither Moscow nor the Poles consulted them in creating the border.

4. Poland, seen as a country very likely to have another future war with either Germany (over Silesia) or Soviet Russia (over Ukraine) was excluded from the premier French military alliance in the region l'Entente petit. Poland had by far the largest population in Eastern Europe outside Soviet Russia and the largest army but Paris could not convince the Czechs, Yugoslavs and Romanians to join with Poland. This fractured political structure in the region made it easy pickings for Hitler in the 1930s...

5. It really p*ssed off Stalin. Stalin, jockeying for position with Trotsky to succeed the ailing Lenin, was involved with some of the planning aspects of the invasion in Poland, though most of the military credit goes to Tukhachevsky. Stalin, expecting an easy success against the Poles and a smooth ride into Germany, worked hard to associate himself with the coming great victory - only to have his name stuck to a very embarrassing defeat. Poor Tukhachevsky was a dead man walking after that defeat because he was the only one Stalin could stick the blame to, and sure enough Tukhachevsky ended his days at Ljubjanka with an NKVD bullet in his skull. Stalin held a special grudge against Poland for this embarrassment (quoting Dostojevsky's anti-Polish rhetoric) and Poland's victory in 1920 was paid for in blood in 1944-53. When the Soviets conquered the various Eastern European countries in 1944-45 they usually sent a Soviet "governor" (someone like Vyshinsky) and they initially let the local communists set up the new puppet regime but in Poland the local communists were immediately swept aside (= shot or arrested) and Soviet citizens were installed in important political and military posts. Only the top cadre were ethnic Poles for cosmetic effect, but everyone from the Defense Minister on down was Soviet, usually an ethnic Russian. Only after Stalin's death and the 1956 "Spring in October" did Moscow allow Poles to take over these posts.

So, to Skilord's question: what would have happened if the Soviets had penetrated the Wisla line and made it to Germany? I can't imagine the Western Allies would have tolerated a Bolshevik Germany. The Americans would probably have just withdrawn but the French and British would have invaded, for sure. Germany itself would have collapsed into civil war with reactionaries fighting the Soviets and communists, some fighting the Western armies, and to boot some opportunist states like Czechoslovakia and even Austria might have taken a stab at grabbing some real estate.

 

[stalin006]

thanks Vrylakas, that helped a lot

 

[SKILORD]

yes.. thank you, i saw it only in passing in a history book but being half Polish it intruiged me.

I'll probably read 1920 now.

 

[redtom]

This kinda on the same question:

When did the fighting stop in Poland at the end of the Second World War? I heard he ended months later then in the west as Poland tried to defend itself against the Soviets

 

[Vrylakas]

redtom wrote:

This kinda on the same question:

When did the fighting stop in Poland at the end of the Second World War? I heard he ended months later then in the west as Poland tried to defend itself against the Soviets.

Hey redtom, long time no hear.

The Soviets entered Poland (old borders) in 1944 and immediately established a replacement government in the first major city they seized, Lublin, breaking their agreements with the Western Allies. Despite having allied status the NKVD began rounding up and arresting or murdering anyone associated with the London government armed forces, the Armia Krajowa (AK), etc. Still, the Soviets' true intentions weren't understood until they refused to cross the Wisla River at Praga (eastern district of Warsaw) during the August-October Warsaw Uprising, simply watching as the Germans slaughtered the remnants of the resistance and dynamited the whole city. After this event a de facto civil war errupted in Poland between several groups: surviving AK soldiers (who numbered some 20,000 in a 1947 amnesty), the NKVD and Soviet Army, the AL (Armia Ludowa, "People's Army", the Polish communist forces) and the UB (Polish KGB in early years), the OUN (Ukrainian nationalist organization fighting Germans, Poles, and Soviets), and pockets of werewolf units (diehard Nazi soldiers who refused to surrender and fought as terrorists). Just to make it fun there were scattered bands of bandits and robbers, formed from deserters from all the armies.

Most of the action took place in southeastern Poland in a heavily forested region (bordering on the Carpathian mountains) called Bieszczady (pron: "Byesh-chahd-ih"). At different points the communist armies of Poland, the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia all took part in campaigns against the insurgents. The AK fought on until a general amnesty in 1947, and even then scattered groups continued until 1953. The communists initially honored the amnesty but of course most were either re-arrested or denied work permits (which meant slow starvation for their family). Even people in my generation paid for AK affiliation; having a father or grandfather who had fought in the AK could mean the difference in being accepted for a certain job or promotion or even getting a phone. I recall being shocked in 1989 when I saw an office open with a very conspicuous sign out front on a major street in Warsaw (ul. Swietokrzyskie) that was for getting financial and social aid for AK veterans.

There were reports of German "werewolf" acts of sabotage as late as 1952 in Poland - blowing up railroad bridges, massacres in obscure villages, etc. With the massive deportation of the native ethnic German populations from Pomerania, Silesia and Prussia though by 1947 there was no base of support for the werewolves. Most were hunted down or probably died of exposure/starvation in the elements.

The OUN were a little different. They were a fusion of different Ukrainian partisan bands who had originally welcomed 1. Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 to unite all Ukrainians together, then 2. German invasion of USSR in 1941 to get rid of Russian/Soviet misrule, then by 1943 they turned against the Germans too because of Nazi misdeeds in Ukraine. At war's end they were pushed out of Ukraine into Poland where they fought tenaciously for several years before they decided to flee westward. It sounds crazy, but a small number did indeed managed to fight and sneak their way through southern Poland, Moravia (Czechoslovakia), eastern Soviet Austria and finally into the Western-controlled part of Austria. A few remained behind and carried out acts of sabotage into the 1950s until their leader Bandera was assassinated by the KGB in front of his West German apartment (in Munich, I think) in 1957. Unfortunately, the Polish communists decided to cut the support from the OUN by deporting the several hundred thousand "Ukrainians" from Bieszczady. I put "Ukrainian" in quotes because there are several smaller groups who do not consider themselves Ukrainian (i.e., the Lemko) but whom everyone else (Poles, Ukrainians) consider Ukrainian and they were all deported as well. My wife's mother is from Bieszczady and their hometown still has a clear Ukrainian cultural imprint, despite the fact that almost everyone is Polish nowadays there.

Post-war Poland had a huge amount of social dislocation (10 million Germans being deported westward, < million Ukrainians eastward, 2 million Poles from the eastern lands (i.e., my family) westward, 5 million liberated Poles from labor camps in Germany and Western Europe eastward, about 5 million Poles within Poland homeless because of war destruction, 3-4 million Polish soldiers in Italy, France and North Africa returning; and 6 million dead from the war) so social violence beyond the civil war was unfortunately quite common. In 1946 there was a large anti-Jewish pogrom in Kielce in which some 250 Jews were beaten to death by a mob. This caused a massive final exodus of Jews from Poland to British Palestine, some 300,000. This is why the Jewish Hagannah of 1948 used Polish as its operating language...

Add to all this the Soviet and UB mass arrests, detentions, show trials and executions that lasted until 1956 and you can see that post-war Poland was truly a fun place to be. A Hungarian professor once put it to me this way: "Those (Hungarians) who wanted a peaceful, predictable and secure life emigrated to the West. But those of us who liked excitement and adventure - we stayed!"

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Dear Vrylakas!

Add in to this - story of constant Polish uprising from 1775 (First Divide of Rzec Pospolita) in Russian territory, couple of your wars under Kostjushko leadership, invasion in Russia in 1812 year under Ponjatovsky leadership in Napoleonic armees, traditional blames from Russians for mass-executions in taken Moscow of Russian partisans & bloody revenge in Poland in 1813-1815 (story of "Russian atrocities in Poland" so shocked European establishment that it was special enquiry of this issue.)
Very important issue in this -was zealous Catholic Faith in Polish lands against really harsh Ortodoxy in Russia. Lutheranic Faith of major Russian politicians (of German origin) didn't help Polish situation as well. Result was - most bloody Polish war (or Great Polish Uprising in Russian History) of 1830-1831, when polish nobles were massacred in great batches after their defeat. (Official excuse was - in time of War some Polish "insurgents" burn around 100 Orthodox priests in Orthodox church alive on Orthodox Cristmas festivity (Orthodox celebration differed from Catholic - then it was reason for this deed. By the way Polish insurgents answered that really many Russian Catholics was killed in Catholic Easter in 1812 year (among them - couple of ministers in government of Speransky) It was made by Russian secret service especially for "strenghtening ranks" - Napoleonic army was Catholic in its core, then mass execution of Catholics BEFORE actual fighting prevented many Russian officers to desert to Napoleon side. They weren't welcomed there, I can asure you .
After that there were other uprising in 1848, in 60 of XIX century etc. All of them were siunk down in Polish blood by Russian execution squads... But in any time Polish men had their reasons for uprising. (For example reason of Polish War of 1830-1831 was breaching by Russia of former Treaty of "Acquiring Poland in Russia" by Vienna Congress in 1814. Russia took new Legislature Codex (by Speransky) in 1829 where all "polish freedoms" was unmercifully cut out - then Fat was in fire...

Oh, it was really complicated story - why Poland didn't like White Russian Army & was on Lenin' side in beginning of Russian Civil war. But it was a reason for Polish entering Civil war against Red Army - old scars are always most painful...

Sincerely yours, Alex.

 

[redtom]

Whats the truth about the werewolf attacks? I kinda know who u mean by the werewolves, SS units whos job was to cause chaos

 

[redtom]

Sorry, a further two questions on Polish history:

How long did the Republic of Cracow (Krakow) survive? And who was it given to.

Is there any truth in the story of General Jozef Sowinski getting his feet nailed to the floor in order to not bow down to tyrants?

 

[Vrylakas]

A_Bashkuev:

Yes indeed, Russo-Polish relations have not been the best. I know some Russians trace our troubled relations back to the 16th centuries battles for Smolensk, and certainly to the 1610-1613 Polish occupation of Moscow.

At least the two countries are finally beginning to build an understanding nowadays. It's not exactly mutual love yet but at least we're talking through politicians and diplomats, and not soldiers. When passions calm down a bit, it seems we have much in common. I know it's a political problem now but I suspect that if done right the Kaliningrad enclave will become a positive aspect of Polish-Russian relations. Things like the 1920 Russo-Polish War are best left to the historians...

 

[Vrylakas]

Redtom wrote:

Whats the truth about the werewolf attacks? I kinda know who u mean by the werewolves, SS units whos job was to cause chaos?

The Nazis began to organize formal partisan-style resistance units in 1944 when it became clear Germany was going to be at least partially occupied (an optimistic assessment), but the program generally failed. Still, isolated fanatic Nazis refused to surrender and all across Europe they managed acts of sabotage and assassination until the early 1950s. They tended to be sporadic and disorganized, but brutal (even to fellow Germans) and occasionally lucky. I've read reports of American troops trains getting bombed in 1947, and in Poland they committed some more atrocities to add to the Nazi war list. They were never a serious military threat, but quite a nuisance especially in rural areas.

Two book recommendations in English:

Perry Biddiscombe's The Last Nazis, SS Werewolf Guerrilla Resistance in Europe; Tempus Publishing, Gloucestershire (UK) 2000

István Deák's & Jan T. Gross' [et al] The Politics of Retribution in Europe, World War II and its Aftermath; Princeton University Press, Princeton (NJ, USA) 2000

Redtom wrote:

Sorry, a further two questions on Polish history:

Any more questions and you may want to start a new thread.

How long did the Republic of Cracow (Krakow) survive? And who was it given to.

About 20 minutes. It was of course a joke, a "free city" established after the Congress of Vienna in 1815 as a fop to re-occupied Poland. Initially they created the Kingdom of Poland under Russian protection [] called derisively "Congress Poland" (Kongresówka) by Poles but it was so pathetic to begin with they created the free city of Kraków. (Kraków was the old royal capital of imperial Poland.) It did actually serve a helpful purpose - serving as an arms and training center for Polish revolutionaries in all the occupied lands - but it all came crashing down in an ugly way in 1846 when the Habsburgs preempted a Polish uprising in Galicia (modern western Ukraine) by allowing Ukrainian peasants to go on a slaughter spree. When the bodies were all collected and buried Vienna took the opportunity to eliminate the annoying "free city". In reality of course Kraków was always heavily under the Habsburg wing in its "free" years, but all three powers were happy to see it removed.

Is there any truth in the story of General Jozef Sowinski getting his feet nailed to the floor in order to not bow down to tyrants?

I'm not sure if that's myth or not; Sowinski's reputation has been greatly enhanced by Slowacki's poem. (Juliusz Slowacki is among the top 5 Polish writers of the 19th century, and one of those classics school children have to read today.) Sowinski certainly did put up a heroic defense at the Wola Church and it is said his wooden leg kept him propped up long after he was dead, but was he nailed down? Dunno. The 19th century, especially the wars of the 1830-31 and 1864 rebellions, is riddled with romantic mythology.

Did Washington really stand in the boat as he crossed the Delaware? Did Kleopatra really speak Egyptian? Did Stanley really say, "Dr. Livingstone, I presume"? These are all neat historical myths that may or may not have been true, but people believe them because they fit into how they want to remember the events.

 

[East German]

The poles eventally won. If they conquered Ukraine, then the Nazi's would've took over the world because there would be no U.S.S.R. to stop them

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Things like the 1920 Russo-Polish War are best left to the historians...

Sure thing. Sure thing indeed.

Sincerely yours, Alex.

 

[joespaniel]

A good read, thanks Vrylakas.