Poland as 1 of 10 new Civilizations added in BTS?

[Xyqtt]

And on top of it. We are not going to add Ireland becasue of U2 so why add Poland because of chopin?

 

[Martinus]

i don't know where are you from and what studing level was in your school but do you know the earth is circular? you know who discover this? not the stonehage builder for sure also Chopin's works are very important for it's music genre. also Poland's stamina during WWII was very heavywieght. in close future the Anti-Rocket shield which might be build (by US gov) in Poland might save your ass

Uhm, sorry MusX, but Euclid established that the Earth is round several centuries BC.

Copernicus formulated the heliocentric theory but it had nothing to do with the shape of the Earth - it concerned the fact that planets orbit the sun, rather than planets and sun orbit the Earth.

See guys, arguments like this make the whole petition look silly and make Poles look like fools. I'd like to see Poland in Civ4 because I'd like to play my own nation and it would probably provide some geographical/ethnic diversity (only Russia for Slavic people), but arguing that it "deserves" to be in due to some groundbreaking achievements is just plain silly - Bohemia or Hungary would be equally valid choice, for example.

 

[Martinus]

By nation I mean country, when I talk about people with separate languages and culture I use ethnic groups.

The Austro-Habsburg empire is definately a more worthy candidate for Civ-status than Poland. It only became Austria-Hungary in the middle of the 19th century. It managed to resist the strongest military power of the day, (ottoman empire) for a couple of hundred years and finally push i back into the balkans as well as partake in the dismemberment of Poland...

I'm not sure about Austria - it was essentially an offshoot of Germany, that later grew into a country of its own. Sure, you can say it's like having America as a civ, but America became a world power.

Like Poland, Austria never amounted to world power - it was at best a regional power. Also, for the most part of the existence of the Holy Roman Empire, Austrian Archdukes were Emperors of HRE (i.e. Germany) - so in a sense you can say they are simply part of the German civilization.

 

[Martinus]

All really great civilizations have already place in CIV.
These 10 could be at best medioacre. Considering civilizations like: Mali, Zulu, Aztec, Inca, Khmer, Hittites, Iroquis or Sioux - Poland was and is military and cultural "superpower", and have longest existence.

First of all, you are mixing apples and oranges there. Some of the civilizations you list were mediocre, but some were supreme in their area and period.

And secondly, more importantly, the thing with all these civilizations is that they were the most advanced ones in the area from which their hail. For an European civilization to be included in game, the bar is raised much higher - otherwise, you could easily have only European, Mediterranean and Asian civilizations in game.

As it is now, there is no European civ currently in game (or that is planned to be included) that was inferior to Poland.

 

[Scaramanga]

I think putting Poland in the game just so there is more Slavic representation is not a very good reason and might detract from actual Polish culture and achievements.

 

[XxtraLarGe]

What is Poland's Unique Unit going to be? I have a suggestion, from an old joke:

"Did you hear that Poland just ordered 5,000 septic tanks? As soon as they learn how to drive them, they're going to invade Germany!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

In all seriousness though, what would be a good Polish UU? How about a Ghetto Fighter (Infantry w/Commando)? Or maybe a Polish Cavalry w/Ambush?

 

[mitsho]

The Polish Hussar is probably the best contender. It has a distinct name, existed really and freed Vienna from the Turks... . Light cavalry replacing knight or so.

mick

 

[Ishon]

I said I would not add the Khmers, because if we do, then we should also add the Incas, Mayas, the Franks and some dozen other civilizations which were of significant importance at any historical period. But I agree that I went much too far putting the Khmers next to the Sioux. And Angkor Wat is an argument comparable to the Copernicus Observatory argument in favor of Poland.

The problem is that we're speaking of 10 new civs, not 12 or 15. Somebody must be left out, just as Poland was left out in favor of the Vikings, Korea, etc (and rightly so). Sumer had more influence on the history of the world than the Khmers or Mayans did.

Comparing Chopin to U2 is sort of pitiful .

 

[Ishon]

And for several good reasons Israel beats the Khmers too (cultural significance - Judaism beats Angkor Wat).

 

[Antilogic]

Comparing Chopin to U2 is sort of pitiful .

You beat me to it.

And on Austria-Hungary...first, call it Austria, because the Germans in Austria were always in control of it, and since the 13th century it was called Austria.

Also, I think Austria is a good pick for an East European civ because of the fact it was so heterogeneous: you really only have Russia as an East European civ right now. The Western Europeans have Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal...and Greece and Rome really deserve to be in the Mediterranean category. So picking one civ that represents several of the Eastern Europeans (Slavs of every kind, Germans, some Poles) wouldn't be a bad idea--that's why I'm going with Austria.

Failing that, Poland isn't a bad pick either--it was among the strongest of the East European countries, and in its day was quite powerful (along with Lithuania). The Balkans have just been picked over, and no truly strong civilization has lasted in East Europe besides the Poles and Austrians.

So, for the region, I would say they are solid picks if you want to add more East Europeans into the game.

 

[burak]

How about some maps, cause i feel some posters have only bleak idea how Poland really looked then:

1097

1387 Poland and Lithuania after union made largest country in Europe.

1600. Poland in Europe

1630 Poland at its heighth. Polish troops conquered Moscow in 1612, and in 1620s held off against Sweden and Turkey simultaneously - two great powers of that time.

1772 Partitions. before partitions Poland was 4th largest european country (by population)

1918 Poland reborn. It was 10th most populated independent country that time.

 

[Scaramanga]

^^

Great pictures but Canada is, like, fifty times bigger than Poland ever was and you'll never see them adding the Canucks anytime soon!

 

[MusX]

it's bigger but it's empty Canada is indeed important country that should be added but it's colonial country so it doesn't have as much own culture and ethic group like Poland if i can pick living in Poland or Canada i will pick Canada

 

[Martinus]

it's bigger but it's empty Canada is indeed important country that should be added but it's colonial country so it doesn't have as much own culture and ethic group like Poland if i can pick living in Poland or Canada i will pick Canada

Not to be a devil's advocate, but most of the Lithuanian part of Poland-Lithuania was quite empty as well.

 

[Ishon]

It's not only about the territory, it's about how long the history of a given civ is, about its cultural achievements and influence on the history of the world. France also controlled a lot of what we call "empty" land, but for obvious reasons it's one of the 14 main civs.

Why is France in the game? It's because it's one of the most important European states, it has a long history with considerable military achievements, it has had important cultural achievements and it's been involved in many major wars.

Poland has a long history with considerable military achievements, less cultural influence and a less important role in the modern world. Yet it was a major European power and today in many aspects it is the most influential state in its region. It is the 6th state in the European Union in terms of the number of seats in the European Parliament following Germany, France, Italy, the UK and Spain. All the above mentioned civs have been included in the game (the Romans->Italy). The Netherlands are 8th, Portugal is... 13th.

Poland vs. Portugal?

Portugal was important for quite a short time in history and I'm not sure whether Poland or Portugal is a more obvious choice for the BTS expansion. Portugal: one wonder (Magellan's Exp.). Poland: one wonder. Poland for obvious reasons could not colonize South America, but instead it did "colonize" one fifth of Europe.

Poland is one of the two countries that managed to capture Moscow and it even attempted to install its own tsar in the Kremlin. Today Portugal is facing a lot of developmental problems and it is but a minor European state, playing no serious role in the world. Putting Portugal in and leaving Poland out would be a proof of total ignorance of the Firaxis team, which I don't expect.

 

[Martinus]

Portugal controlled a world-spanning empire for a couple of centuries. The result of its influence include most of the South American continent (where people speak Portuguese as their official language).

Poland doesn't come even close, and I say it as a Pole. (Even if you stretch the definition of colonization immensely, and include Lithuania and Ukraine, this colonizations was not too succesful, since the people there do not speak Polish as their native language).

So far it's not Firaxis that is proving its total ignorance.

And what does controlling Moscow have to do with a claim to being a great civilization? (Especially as the time Poland controlled Moscow, it was a private enterprise of some Polish nobles who allied with a faction in the Russian civil war - it was not a formal war between Poland and Russia). It's not like everybody tried it anyway - only the madmen like Hitler or Napoleon saw anything worth in it - I'm sure Victoria or Washington did not sit in their cabinets, in tears, worrying that if they don't capture Moscow, their countries will always be overshadowed by the mighty Poles.

In short, your post is a collection of factual errors and ommissions, coupled with unsubstantiated claims.

 

[kdaag]

Come on you must be kidding! Poland being on par with Portugal in world history? The Portuguese more or less "discovered" the rest of the world while Poland was preoccupied with internal strife and bickering. Showing a bunch of territorial maps from a time in history to exemplify greatness is a lousy way of advocating for a civ. Every time Poland was threatened by other countries' armies the system of government with a powerless regent made dependant on the nobility made it impossible to raise an army to defend the country. Most surrounding countries have successfully invaded Poland over and over again through history, how come Poland has never done the same except in 1920? (when the Soviets were occupied with their civil war as well as fighting allied powers trying to intervene)

A bunch of powerful noble families ruling fast tracts of land (and wilderness in Belarus) and only nominally recognizing a central power does not mean that the country is a great historical power. I would say that Sweden who for hundreds of years managed to keep the russians at bay as well as stopping the papists (catholics) from taking over Europe would be just as good a candidate for a civ as Poland...

Seriously being proud of your on country is not the same as being objective enough to see if it has really influenced world history... (which at least is my criterion for a in game civ)

The Khmers did influence the history of SE asia greatly for example helping to spread Hinduism and culture thoughout, even though it was later replaced by Buddhism and Islam. The west africa empires (collectively known as Mali in civ) helped to spread islam, as well as learning in west africa and were at their time greatly influencing.

I also have to comment people wanting Canada, Brasil and other major countries today to achieve civ status. Seriously size is not the only thing that matters. Just because you have big land areas today and in brazils case a large population your legacy on the world is at least at the moment totally negligible. This may ofcourse change with time but the biggest reason right now is size and this is more thanks to the British and Portugease that colonized your lands in the first place. (and french in Canada)

 

[Martinus]

I agree with kdaag about the colonial countries - America is in, for a number of reasons making it unique (from purely marketing ones to a recognition of the fact that it has been a superpower for nearly 100 years), however I'd stop it at that and wouldn't include any other colonial country.

 

[Mirc]

How about some maps, cause i feel some posters have only bleak idea how Poland really looked then:

Spoiler too big :

1097

1387 Poland and Lithuania after union made largest country in Europe.

1600. Poland in Europe

1630 Poland at its heighth. Polish troops conquered Moscow in 1612, and in 1620s held off against Sweden and Turkey simultaneously - two great powers of that time.

1772 Partitions. before partitions Poland was 4th largest european country (by population)

1918 Poland reborn. It was 10th most populated independent country that time.

Those maps are SOOOOOO flawed.

When did Poland conquer Moldova?

Where's Florence on that last map?

When did the Ottomans conquer Crimea or Wallachia, or Moldova?

1387 Poland and Lithuania after union made largest country in Europe.

Are you sure?

 

[Onagan]

I don't want the Polish in Civ, I want Sweden in it. with Globe Arena as WorldWonder