Poland as 1 of 10 new Civilizations added in BTS?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Those maps are SOOOOOO flawed. :rolleyes:
When did Poland conquer Moldova? :lol:
Where's Florence on that last map?
When did the Ottomans conquer Crimea or Wallachia, or Moldova?
Are you sure? ;)
Actually Moldova has another colour than Poland - it was vassal state of Poland 1387-1497, and vassal of Ottomans after 1497.
Chan of Crimea was a vassal of Ottomans since 1475.
Vallachia was a vassal od Ottomans since 1526.
During Ottomans rule, especially after XVIIc - hospodars od Vallachia and Moldova were only sultans subordinates - these countries were in fact part of Ottomans Empire. Chan of Crimea has more independent status.
Was Poland&Lithuania largest?
In 1387 two countries were similiar size - Golden Orde and united Scandinavia. And probably Republic of Novogrod - not empire in typical sense - rather net of merchant factories in large barren land that will become later North Russia.
 
Portugal controlled a world-spanning empire for a couple of centuries. The result of its influence include most of the South American continent (where people speak Portuguese as their official language).

Poland doesn't come even close, and I say it as a Pole. (Even if you stretch the definition of colonization immensely, and include Lithuania and Ukraine, this colonizations was not too succesful, since the people there do not speak Polish as their native language).

So far it's not Firaxis that is proving its total ignorance.

And what does controlling Moscow have to do with a claim to being a great civilization? (Especially as the time Poland controlled Moscow, it was a private enterprise of some Polish nobles who allied with a faction in the Russian civil war - it was not a formal war between Poland and Russia). It's not like everybody tried it anyway - only the madmen like Hitler or Napoleon saw anything worth in it - I'm sure Victoria or Washington did not sit in their cabinets, in tears, worrying that if they don't capture Moscow, their countries will always be overshadowed by the mighty Poles. :rolleyes:

In short, your post is a collection of factual errors and ommissions, coupled with unsubstantiated claims.

I agree that if you're comparing Poland over any of the Western European nations in terms of being in Civ 4 you should first answer this question: Are there any other countries in the world besides Poland that have Polish as an official language?
If not, they've just lost out to the English, the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch... maybe even the Germans, I'm not sure.
I don't actually know the answer to the question myself so...
ARE there any other countries in the world besides Poland that have Polish as an official language?:mischief:
 
I agree that if you're comparing Poland over any of the Western European nations in terms of being in Civ 4 you should first answer this question: Are there any other countries in the world besides Poland that have Polish as an official language?
If not, they've just lost out to the English, the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch... maybe even the Germans, I'm not sure.
I don't actually know the answer to the question myself so...
ARE there any other countries in the world besides Poland that have Polish as an official language?:mischief:

And how many countries in the world have Dutch as official language? Netherlands and Suriname:rolleyes:

And about the arguments about Netherlands and Poland being world empires, while Poland was only a local power. How many people lived in these Dutch and Portuguese colonies in, say, XVII century? How much important was Portuguese Angola or Dutch South Africa then. Not more, i think that one polish province in Ukraine. True, Portugal and Netherlands both had their era of colonial power, but how long it lasted? Portugal started seafaring around 1400 and founded some colonies around the world, but since 1580 they were under Spain, and later didn't play much role in europe or world, except creating Brazil. Dutch goldn age was short as well. They gained independence from Spain only in 1579, and prospered for some 140 years, until war of spanish succession in 1713. After that, i don't see dutch making anything important. While in their golden age both countries could have more importance than Poland ever had, you must notice it only lasted for 1-2 centuries, while Poland remained quite important in European stage for most of its existence (except partitions era).
 
Actually Moldova has another colour than Poland - it was vassal state of Poland 1387-1497, and vassal of Ottomans after 1497.
Chan of Crimea was a vassal of Ottomans since 1475.
Vallachia was a vassal od Ottomans since 1526.
During Ottomans rule, especially after XVIIc - hospodars od Vallachia and Moldova were only sultans subordinates - these countries were in fact part of Ottomans Empire. Chan of Crimea has more independent status.
Was Poland&Lithuania largest?
In 1387 two countries were similiar size - Golden Orde and united Scandinavia. And probably Republic of Novogrod - not empire in typical sense - rather net of merchant factories in large barren land that will become later North Russia.
So if a king is vassal to another, is it normal to draw it inside the borders? Then let's put Hungary in Poland too, they were a vassal for some time too! And at the time of the Hundred Years War the English king was a vassal of the French king. Is it OK to draw England in France? :eek:

hospodars od Vallachia and Moldova were only sultans subordinates - these countries were in fact part of Ottomans Empire.
Where did you copy that text from? :rolleyes: Prove it.
 
The King of England wasn't a vassal of the King of France - the person who also held the English throne was a vassal of the King of France in his capacity as the Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine (and paid quite a lip service at that) - at no point in history England was formally subject to French rule.

Learn history before posting, please.
 
The King of England wasn't a vassal of the King of France - the person who also held the English throne was a vassal of the King of France in his capacity as the Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine (and paid quite a lip service at that) - at no point in history England was formally subject to French rule.

Learn history before posting, please.

Did I say it was formally subject to French rule? That's what I was trying to prove wrong! That being a vassal of some king does not make your country formally subject to another ruler.

You are right in what you're saying, Beginning with Rollo, the leaders of Normandy were vassals to the king of France, and they were still vassals after they became kings in England. How does this contradict what I said? Isn't it exactly what I said? "The kings of England were vassals to the French king". How is this wrong? You just tried to appear smart by using words like Aquitaine which you probably thought I've never heard about! :lol: You picked the wrong person, don't tell me to learn history!
 
I don't think Poland would be added based on their status as a power, so much as they are a big representation of Slavic based people.

I mean you have many Germanic peoples represented throughout most of Europe, from Scandinavians to French to Germans themselves, but you don't get anything in Eurasia other than Russia. When you look at the choices, Poland is the most notable (or one of) unused slavic peoples.

The French are not a Germanic people; they speak a Romance language. As for Eurasia, that term means the whole of Europe and Asia. Eurasia is represented in the present game by England, France, Spain, the Vikings, the Celts, the Romans, the Greeks, Russia, Germany, India, China, Japan, Persia, Arabia, Mongolia and Korea. In the XP, they will be joined by the Netherlands, Portugal and Babylonia. I'd say that Europe and Asia are very well represented in the game whereas Africa is quite underrepresented. What about Ethiopia, for example? There are also civilizations or peoples such as the Maya, the Hittites, the Maori and the Iroquois which I would find much more interesting to have in the game than Poland.
 
Öjevind Lång;5285272 said:
The French are not a Germanic people; they speak a Romance language. As for Eurasia, that term means the whole of Europe and Asia. Eurasia is represented in the present game by England, France, Spain, the Vikings, the Celts, the Romans, the Greeks, Russia, Germany, India, China, Japan, Persia, Arabia, Mongolia and Korea. In the XP, they will be joined by the Netherlands, Portugal and Babylonia. I'd say that Europe and Asia are very well represented in the game whereas Africa is quite underrepresented. What about Ethiopia, for example? There are also civilizations or peoples such as the Maya, the Hittites, the Maori and the Iroquois which I would find much more interesting to have in the game than Poland.

Thanks! :D I said that too, but nobody seemed to care. ;)
 
What is Poland's Unique Unit going to be? I have a suggestion, from an old joke:

"Did you hear that Poland just ordered 5,000 septic tanks? As soon as they learn how to drive them, they're going to invade Germany!" :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :blush:

In all seriousness though, what would be a good Polish UU? How about a Ghetto Fighter (Infantry w/Commando)? Or maybe a Polish Cavalry w/Ambush?

We have in Poland similar jokes of other peoples. These jokes were made by immatured people with inferiority (or other) complexes. Those jokes do not bother me. I am only saying that nations are laughing with other nations. So what's your purpose of saying what you said? You can say: "Poles are ...", when all around the globe people have such opinion, not in particular country.

to be continued (edited) ...

1) Polish nation history lasts 1000 years. During this time, we fought more wars than any other country in Europe. That's true we dissappeared from the maps for 110 years. But as someone said, we have been put beetween very agressive civs: Germans, Russians, Mongols and Tatars. So one set-back is the reason to deny our rights to be a nation? I say no ... cause we were agressive too. And what's more important: efficient. We came back to life, after 1WW. And that's not impressive fact? Tell me how many nations were resurected after 1WW? Ukraine was not so quickly, needed 80 years more. That points that Polish culture was the strongest of all central-European nations. And that's not the argument? Even Israel was not so efficient to come back to life. Some of you might say it was luck, but: The Polish did not sat on chairs when 1WW was taking place. They fought their way to independance. Also 2WW points the fact that we were tightly keeping the life. We were probably scared of loosing a nation again, I guess. Tell me, whose scientists bulid Enigma machine, that decoded Hitler's orders? Or tell me who many German fighter's were down due too Polish pilots, seccuring The Battle of Brittain?
And now the facts ... If you find the second nation on this world with greater will to live, tell me. There are stats, I do not know the numbers, but Poland in 966 had probably less population than Prussia. If we divide current_population/population(in 1000AD) (of every country in Europe) we get weird results pointing that Poland has enormous cultural achievments and very strong national sovereignty. Add to these numbers all Poles, who died in battles, and you would find out that Poland as a civ would be even stronger. We've been the only pure-katholic nation of all the Europe. That's not the argument of being one?

And I would give my head, that Europe would be divided by Islam and Communism, if there was not nation of mine.

2) in our Golden Age, we had our own deadly weapon: Winged Hussars. There are books that point, that Hussars were more efficient than standard heavy horseman. So I guess, we have at least achievement

3) And the interesting thing: Russian Empire: 200k troops, German Empire: 200k troops, AustrioHungarian Empire: 200k troops, Polish Empire: 16k troops. (general levy). And it was enough to fight one war after another (unfortunately one day there was one war AND another)

You might say we were barbaric. You might say we were back with economy. You might say we had bad kings. You might say some of us are nationalists. But you can't say we are not a Civilization (with no own culture and national sovereignty) and we had no impact on the history. The problem with us is that, we had passive impact, not active. We were blocking from attacks from Tatars, Turks, Mongols, Russians. Netherlands had active (colonizing) impact. And maybe that's why some of you are not very objective.
 
By nation I mean country, when I talk about people with separate languages and culture I use ethnic groups.

The Austro-Habsburg empire is definately a more worthy candidate for Civ-status than Poland. It only became Austria-Hungary in the middle of the 19th century. It managed to resist the strongest military power of the day, (ottoman empire) for a couple of hundred years and finally push i back into the balkans as well as partake in the dismemberment of Poland...

It might be better to call such a civ "the Habsburg civilization". But as I have said before, I think there are more than enough European civs in the game as it is. It seems to me that the repeated Polish calls for an inclusion of Poland are due to nationalism, not to Poland being one of the great civilizations of history.
 
Here's another good European map site: www.euratlas.com. It has some great maps, at least one per century of the world from AD 1 to AD 2000 in Europe. Good reference.

@Öjevind Lång: I would rather call them Austrians simply because that was the name of the country. We don't call the English the Tudors or Windsor-ians or Hanoverians or House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. We don't call the French Bourbons, so why call the Austrians Hapsburgs? Just because they have a mixed empire doesn't change the fact the Austrians ruled it.

The thing is, as I have pointed out, there are several Western European civs (Spain, Portugal, Britain, France, Germany, Netherlands) in the game, and there are plenty of Mediterranean civs in the game (Greece, Rome, Egypt, Carthage), but the only truly East European civ is Russia. If you are looking to add a nation that has Slavs and other East European peoples simply to bump up representation, then Poland or Austria are the best picks of those available, and were successful in their own rights hundreds of years ago.
 
Here's another good European map site: www.euratlas.com. It has some great maps, at least one per century of the world from AD 1 to AD 2000 in Europe. Good reference.

Yes, it has good maps. But there are complaints (even on their site) about the 700 AD map and about another, very early, one. Never mind though, it's not related to this topic. :)
 
Also our population growth is possitive, while in Germany and Russia (our greatest age-long competitors) is negative. That's not an argument?
 
Also our population growth is possitive, while in Germany and Russia (our greatest age-long competitors) is negative. That's not an argument?

It's negative in all three. :lol:

Europe_population_growth_2006.png


And how it this an argument? It's really positive in Bosnia, let's include them too! :run:
 
Yes, it has good maps. But there are complaints (even on their site) about the 700 AD map and about another, very early, one. Never mind though, it's not related to this topic. :)

Agreed, being that Poland didn't exist during this time period. :)
 
My god, is this argument still goin on ...?

Personally, although I was sympathetic to the addition of Poland in the beginning, I've come to the conclusion that I don't want them to be added. The reason for this are actually the numbers of Polish nationalists that recently appeared in the boards of many strategy games, demanding that the alleged glory of their nation "must" be recognized.

While I *was* sympathetic of their cause in the beginning, after some months the constant demands, debates, and bickering, start to become an annoyance. They also start to change my image of Poland. The constant nationalism of several people across several forums simply turn me off, and it has reached a point where I simply wouldn't want to have Poland in my game, let alone play as them, because it would constantly remind me about this unnerving nationalism. And I certainly wouldn't want to identify with that.

Also, I found "who cries loudest gets served last" a very effective method of bringing people back to reasonable discussions instead of maximizing demands.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the Polish players who aren't nationalistic and who may feel hurt or misunderstood if they read this post ... but in all honesty, this Polish petitionism has reached a point where I just hope that Firaxis includes another nation that I'll have more fun playing. The recent behavior of many Polish people on the internet have, sorry to say, kind of spoiled it for me.

I also simply don't understand why Poles who want to play as Poland don't just mod it in. The driving force behind the whole discussion doesn't seem to be a desire to play as Poland (because then putting together a modding team would be much more effective than starting petitions), but a desire to be recognized as a glorious nation. But if that's the point, then a computer game simply is the wrong place to press it. Sorry.
 
How are the French Germanic? :confused: Do you mean the Franks? And if you do, they are not in Civ4 anyway. And in case you didn't know, there are much more than just slavics in Eastern Europe and Russia.
Öjevind Lång;5285272 said:
The French are not a Germanic people; they speak a Romance language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

Wikipedia.org said:
The Franks or the Frankish peoples were one of several west Germanic federations. They were not originally grouped into one official tribe, but "as with the other barbarians, they belonged to much smaller groups that would join constantly changing confederations."[1] The confederation was formed out of Germanic tribes: Salians, Sicambri, Chamavi, Tencteri, Chattuarii, Bructeri, Usipetes, Ampsivarii, Chatti. Most of those peoples were living at the northern borders of the Rhine in what was then called Francia in the panegyrici Latini.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France

Wikipedia.org said:
The name France comes from Latin Francia, which literally means "land of the Franks or Frankland".
 
...And what's more important: efficient. We came back to life, after 1WW. And that's not impressive fact? Tell me how many nations were resurected after 1WW? ...
Well, besides Poland:
Czechoslovakia
Yugoslavia
Finland
Estonia
Lithuania
Latvia

These 6 nations are same efficent as Poland. Why don't add Finland as a new civ?
 
My sources say different: 0,03. Still possitive.

Quoted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The regions of Poland
Poland is situated in Central Europe, on the Baltic Sea. It covers an area of 312685 km² and is the 9th largest country in Europe. The total population amounts to 38.6 million inhabitants, occupying in this regard 8th place in Europe. Average population density amounts to 124 people per km². Poland is bordered on the east by Russia Federation (Kaliningrad District), Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine, on the west by Germany, on the south by the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and on the north by the Baltic Sea.

The origins of the Polish State reach date back to the IX-X centuries, when the tribes living in the Oder and Vistula river basins united. In 966, Poland adopted Christianity. In its more than 1000-year history, Poland has experienced both, periods of glory, being one of the richest and most powerful country in Central and Eastern Europe (XVth and XVIth century), as well as of downfall, including the loss of independence and the division of its territory between Austria, Prussia and Russia at the end of the XVIII century. After a period of 123 years, Poland regained independence in 1918 only to lose its sovereignty again in the Second World War when invaded by both Germany and the Soviet Union. Its current borders, not determined until the Jalta and Potsdam Conferences and later agreements with Germany and the USSR, enclose territory 78 000 km² smaller than before the war and an ethnically virtually homogeneous population.

In 1989 the first partially free elections in Poland 's post-war history concluded the Solidarity movement's ten-year struggle for freedom and resulted in the defeat of Poland’s communist rulers. In 1998 Poland joined NATO and began negotiating its full membership in the European Union.

A sovereign Polish State, as understood in International Law, was deprived of independence, however, through remaining within the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence (among others, the Warsaw Pact and the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance). Since 1989, as a result of changing the political system, Poland became an independent democratic state, with a bicameral National Assembly (Sejm and Senate) elected for a 4-year term as well as with a President chosen in general elections for a 5-year term. In April 1997, the National Assembly passed a new Constitution which, after being affirmed through a national referendum, will replace the existing regulations.

On 1 I 1999 a new fundamental three-tier administrative division of the country was introduced, including the following territorial levels: gminas, powiats and voivodships. A total 308 powiats and 65 cities with powiat status as well as 16 voivodships were created. This change did not affect gminas (the basic unit of the country’s territorial structure).

The Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistical Purposes (NTS) was introduced by a Regulation of the Council of Ministers, dated 13 July 2000. NTS is a five-level hierarchic classification used in the process of collecting information, conducting statistical surveys and presenting their results in spatial terms. The Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistical Purposes (NTS) divides Poland into territorial units on 5 levels: level 1 – regions (6); level 2 – voivodships (16); level 3 – subregions (45); level 4 – powiats and cities with powiat status (314 + 65); level 5 – gminas (2478).

Poland is a lowland country, the average above sea level elevation amounts to 173 m, and areas below 300 m above sea level account for 91% of the country’s area. The country is situated between the Baltic Sea and a bow in the Carpathian Mountains within intermediate geographic latitudes, in a zone of moderate climate with a transitional character between an oceanic and continental climate. A host of historic and cultural sites of European importance and offer numerous tourist attractions are Poland’s 26 national parks and 8 World Heritage sites.

Soils in Poland are characterised by a high degree of diversity; light, low fertility soils, however, predominate. The large diversity of the natural resources, particularly abundant are deposits of hard coal (exploited in the mines of Upper Silesia) and brown coal, extracted through the open-pit method, deposits of copper, sulphur and zinc-lead ores, is closely connected with the geological differentiation. Various rock raw materials as well as rock salt have large economic significance. Poland also has vast deposits of geothermal water. There are numerous sources of therapeutic waters, among others, chloride, hydrogencarbonate and sul phur waters.

The raw material resources and industrial development resulted in the fact that, after the Second World War, Poland became an industrial-agricultural country. The dynamic development of the private sector is based on the continuous inflow of Foreign Direct Investment
and the high level of entrepreneurial activity of the Polish population. Dominant industries include metalwork, steel, chemical and textile production. Increasingly trade, high technology and service sector play an important role in for employment and restructuring of the national economy.

Polish culture is an integral part of European culture. The greatest Poles were: Copernicus
– the astronomer, Fryderyk Chopin – the great composer and pianist, Maria Curie-Skłodowska – the outstanding scientist
. Two Polish poets Czesław Miłosz and Wislawa Szymborska have been awarded to the Nobel Prize for literature. A long musical tradition is continued by such world-renowned composers as Krzysztof Penderecki and Henryk Górecki. Films of Andrzej Wajda, Krzysztof Kieślowski and Roman Polański contributed highly to the world and European cinema. Polish art and theatre are well known thanks to works of Jerzy Grotowski, Tadeusz Kantor and Magdalena Abakanowicz.

Poland has 884 cities in which 62% of the country’s population lives. Small cities (below 10 thousand inhabitants) decidedly predominate, while almost half of the urban population live in 42 cities with populations of more than 100 thousand inhabitants. The largest is Warsaw, the capital and the country’s economic and political centre, with about 1.6 million inhabitants. Other Polish cities such as Gdańsk, Kraków, Poznań, and Wrocław are also world-known for their cultural heritage and tourist attractions.

http://forum.europa.eu.int/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/pl.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom