Policies

[Txurce]

Sneaks is right, although you have a point about the early game (it seems the Ancient Wonders DLC skews AIs from getting key wonders?) after ~t75 tech becomes at least 50% of wonder building - in my first game since I've been back I wasn't playing very efficiently and ranked low in tech and I didn't see any WWs available in the build queue after t125 or so.

Yes, my point is only about the early game, where (somewhat like you) I've picked up 3 or 4 Wonders... after which the familiar Civ 5 snowball effect is working here as well, maybe earlier than it does anywhere else.

I have thought about the 3 new Wonders slowing down the AI - and possibly giving the human more of a crack at the Wonders the human wants - but do recall that the AI approach seemed to change with the last patch.

 

[Ahriman]

Thal's v106 description is up, with relevant policy tweaks. It seems like a reasonable compromise, worth testing.
The Liberty finisher still seems very weak though, since there are so few buildings that provide happiness.

Without the Ancient Wonders dlc (which I don't have), I find that on high difficulty levels it is hardly ever worth trying to push for the early wonders. There are lots of other things I need (archers, settler, worker, library) and there is a high chance that even if I beeline for a particular wonder that I won't get it, and if I've devoted 20 turns to building a wonder that I then lose, then that is a big loss.
So in general I think it isn't worth the gamble.

 

[Txurce]

Without the Ancient Wonders dlc (which I don't have), I find that on high difficulty levels it is hardly ever worth trying to push for the early wonders. There are lots of other things I need (archers, settler, worker, library) and there is a high chance that even if I beeline for a particular wonder that I won't get it, and if I've devoted 20 turns to building a wonder that I then lose, then that is a big loss.
So in general I think it isn't worth the gamble.

That is how I've always played, too. More recently, I'd say the gamble is worth it under more frequent circumstances (although of course it's still a gamble).

 

[Seek]

Thal's v106 description is up, with relevant policy tweaks. It seems like a reasonable compromise, worth testing.
The Liberty finisher still seems very weak though, since there are so few buildings that provide happiness.

The Liberty finisher might be fairly powerful for Wonder spamming in conjunction with the Tradition wonder SP actually, since so many WWs seem to provide happiness now. An unintended consequence?

[Btw, we keep crossposting this morning and I've responded to your other posts in edits - I'm not sure you saw them.]

 

[Ahriman]

might be fairly powerful for Wonder spamming

Wonders aren't buildings, bonuses to buildings don't affect wonder construction.
I am guessing this would affect only the Circus, stoneworks (or whatever its called), Colosseum, Theater and Stadium.

* * *

I've responded to your other posts in edits - I'm not sure you saw them.

Well, I agree with you agreeing with me

Otherwise:

I'm also curious why the gold/pop was nerfed in Trad - it never seemed OP to me, can anyone fill me in?

The idea was that Tradition wasn't helping enough in the early game but had maybe too much staying power, relative to the Liberty policies. So the flat +5 gold (rather than +1 gold per 2 pop) was designed to help more in the early game but peter out over time.

 

[Ahriman]

As an alternative for the Liberty finisher; how about +1 happiness from the happiness buildings (Colosseum, theater, stadium)? +20% production on them is nearly useless given how few and weak these buildings are.

 

[Thalassicus]

Just occurred to me: Is the abundant happiness in Trad's purpose to allow smaller empires an economic boost via selling all luxuries? Was it an intentional decision?

(or alternatively more frequent golden ages...) good question.

Yes to both, but I'm okay reducing it if you feel it's too much.

I'm also curious why the gold/pop was nerfed in Trad - it never seemed OP to me, can anyone fill me in? Economy is the biggest drag on small and tall empires in my experience.

It wasn't technically nerfed - it's stronger in the early game and weaker in the late game. I did this so the policy has both early (gold) and late (happiness) advantages.

@tlaurila
The concept is citizens in each of the 3 playstyles do different things with safety. Safe citizens in a tall empire become farmers, wide empires become builders, and militaristic citizens are happier when safe.

 

[tlaurila]

Thumbs up for the 106 policies so far. When I finish my current game (not that soon), time to try that and put fingers crossed that the savegame bug got squashed

 

[Seek]

Yes to both, but I'm okay reducing it if you feel it's too much.

I do, as I mentioned in the post where I brought the subject up: I sold every lux as soon as I hooked it up throughout the game (I'm on t160 now, have the highest pop in my capital I've evr had at this time, had two happiness GAs, and with 6 luxuries between my two cities, I'm earning 1440 gold every 30 turns = 48 gpt) and have maintained happiness levels hovering around 20 without lifting a finger or building a single building to increase happiness, including walls. I think a culture bonus or a flat gold bonus on wonders would be more appropriate and fun. The ease of obtaining happiness just makes the gameplay too simple, and as I mentioned earlier I have felt since civ5's release that it's odd how little most wonders increase culture; wonder hoarding should make for a cultural powerhouse. But all this being said, I'll be happy to try a few more Tradition games and report if you don't want to make changes immediately.

 

[Zaldron]

As an alternative for the Liberty finisher; how about +1 happiness from the happiness buildings (Colosseum, theater, stadium)? +20% production on them is nearly useless given how few and weak these buildings are.

That seems far more OP than the current tradition happy/wonder policy.

And I suspect if we remove the walls policies, we'll be right back where no one builds them, ever, again. I'm not sure adding food/production to walls is ideal but it at least makes them a choice rather than a no-brainer to ignore.

Also in 106 what's the point of nerfing the tradition opener even further (it was indirectly nerfed once already by increasing the first policy from 25 to 50)? It's arguably much worse than the liberty opener now, which only needs two total cities to be equal.

 

[Ahriman]

That seems far more OP than the current tradition happy/wonder policy.

Maybe. How about +0.5 happy from each of those buildings then?
Surely we can agree that the +20% build speed policy is near-useless? Think of how few bonus hammers it will give you over the course of the entire game, and then average that out to a per-turn bonus.

And I suspect if we remove the walls policies, we'll be right back where no one builds them, ever, again.

It wouldn't be that hard to adjust their costs such that they were worth building in cities that might come under threat, but not in other cities. I'm not sure it makes sense to have a design where walls are worth building everywhere.
But anyway, I think Thal sees the core idea of defensive building boosting policies as a settled issue, so I don't think it is worth spending more time re-examining this.

 

[tlaurila]

Surely we can agree that the +20% build speed policy is near-useless?

Well yeah, I suppose it pretty much is.

1 / happiness building wouldn't be as strong as 2 / defensive building, but still strong I suppose.

Perhaps a page from Ceremonial Rites, so that Liberty Finisher gives Colosseum automatically to all cities? (At that point many cities will likely have one, but for one it might get destroyed in conquest) It's definitely an expansive trait, giving automaticaly some happiness from new/acquired cities, and mixes production and happiness.

 

[Ahriman]

2 / defensive building, but still strong I suppose.

2 happy per defensive building was far too strong. Up to +8 happy per city from a single policy?? When even a stadium is only giving +4 happiness?

Perhaps a page from Ceremonial Rites, so that Liberty Finisher gives Colosseum automatically to all cities?

I think this is a very interesting idea! It synergizes well with rapid expansion, and it mitigates the downside of expansion, but without giving too much of a long-term boost (since it doesn't actually increase the total happiness you can acquire). It requires timing to use well.
And it encourages you to play differently, the ultimate mark of a good policy.

 

[Txurce]

I think this is a very interesting idea! It synergizes well with rapid expansion, and it mitigates the downside of expansion, but without giving too much of a long-term boost (since it doesn't actually increase the total happiness you can acquire). It requires timing to use well.
And it encourages you to play differently, the ultimate mark of a good policy.

I think I'm missing something. Why would you play differently?

 

[Ahriman]

I think I'm missing something. Why would you play differently?

You would hold off on building Colosseums until you were ready to use the policy, in order to maximize the amount of free stuff.

 

[tlaurila]

You would hold off on building Colosseums until you were ready to use the policy, in order to maximize the amount of free stuff.

Yeah, which I think is the idea's strongest downside: The AI wouldn't understand to anticipate it and withhold colosseums.

 

[Txurce]

You would hold off on building Colosseums until you were ready to use the policy, in order to maximize the amount of free stuff.

Because you only get them in existing cities? If I were playing Liberty full-tilt, I would imagine I'd have four cities built every time before reaching the Finisher. Whether I decide it's worth my while to hold off on building colosseums would probably depend on my luxury situation. That's probably where the trade-off would come - less income now for free colosseums later.

 

[Seek]

You would hold off on building Colosseums until you were ready to use the policy, in order to maximize the amount of free stuff.

I imagine if it were implemented, it would be done in the fashion Thal changed the cultural building SP to work: free buildings now, or later if the relevant tech isn't researched yet. So it would be a totally passive method. (I happen to dislike this change - it removes the decision-making and strategy from the equation - but not to such a degree that I will suggest reverting it.)

 

[Ahriman]

Because you only get them in existing cities?

Yes, and because you wouldn't get anything if you'd already built the Colosseum.

Whether I decide it's worth my while to hold off on building colosseums would probably depend on my luxury situation. That's probably where the trade-off would come - less income now for free colosseums later.

Right. Strategic tensions are good.

free buildings now, or later if the relevant tech isn't researched yet.

This would probably be ok, but I would think it would be fairly likely you'd have Construction by the time you had 6 policy picks in a game where you were expanding rapidly (so policy costs were rising).
Of course, it could also encourage you to delay getting Construction.

I would keep it different from the culture one though; if you already have a colosseum, you don't get a free theatre. That is the price you pay for getting it in every city, not in just 4 cities.

 

[Zaldron]

Maybe. How about +0.5 happy from each of those buildings then?
Surely we can agree that the +20% build speed policy is near-useless? Think of how few bonus hammers it will give you over the course of the entire game, and then average that out to a per-turn bonus.

0.5 happy seems much better. We definitely agree that the 20% production was pretty worthless.