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Policy Discussion: Honor

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI chooses on flavor, not what's in policies. And flavors are the same.
     
  2. hokath

    hokath King

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    Does the AI also take into account the "we have the same policies" bonus?
    This would cause cooperative choice in policy trees. (slightly off-topic, but what is the logic behind this, again? Surely if you have the same policies, you are competitors?)
     
  3. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    The logic is that some players wanted more ways to make friends, I've honestly never had trouble making enough friends when I peacemonger (possibly duplicitous ones I guess), but maybe that's a huge map thing or a not super high difficulty thing. And Gazebo decided civs that see the world in the same way would be a good way to do it, like it already was with ideologies.
     
  4. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Can we change the way units are assigned to cities when they reach a certain size?
    It isn't very helpful to have explorer units assigned when the more common and comparable CS unit of the time is the Pikeman.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Eh?

    G
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Think he is talking about the Policy 'Honor'
     
  7. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Thank you, yes, I can't recall the policy name but the one that grants you a unit when your cities reach 8, 16, etc. population.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Oh. It's a random function

    G
     
  9. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    Two remarks:

    First, it is very possible to conquer cities with archers on every difficulty (perhaps not on any speed though). All it takes is time and patience. Archer attacking city is 3 XP, being shot at is 2. Damage is usually 2X-3X, so an archer can sustain 2-3 turns until he has to go back to heal. Eventually you get range, and that's game.
    Also, if you can found a hill with flatland forest/jungle tile between city and hill, the city can't shoot the archer, but the archer can shoot the city.


    On the more general topic of authority: It is the tree that is most dependent on difficulty. On deity, you generally don't get to kill any barb camps, because ruthless AI troops prowl the area. However, only one full scale war against a deity AI generates so many kills that the gains from dominance are just awesome.
     
  10. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    This assumes the enemy has no army and that you're willing to fall behind economically to build your army for however long it takes to finally get your reward. On higher difficulties this is nearly impossible.

    I like that the tree is a bit of a gamble due to how war is inherently a gamble. I don't like that your odds are SO much worse due to the difficulty level. If they were scaling bonuses to make the AI keep up with the player, that'd be great. Right now its just an early game hump you have to beat, and then its smooth sailing again. And that hump disproportionately affects Authority and early game conquering.
     
  11. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    It assumes that you have defeated the enemy field army before you lay siege to the city.
    And the investment in army is less than you would think. You need 3 or 4 archers. One can most of the time be bought. A melee unit is nice.
    Starting warrior and scout will do,
    if hammers are few.

    And it works on deity.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think this highlights just how awful range is as a promotion. I'm half-tempted to either remove it, or make it require every single promotion that a ranged unit can gain (make it the top of the pyramid).

    G
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I think it actually highlights how much the average forumer likes to exaggerate :D.
    Range is definitely powerful, but considering how much flanking the AI does with horse-units, it is no where near a free win.
     
  14. hokath

    hokath King

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    I'm still not convinced that the AI plays well around Range. I guess they can't actually see where my Range-Logistics-Cannon is, but a human player wouldn't mill around once their first unit got blown away. If you are patient enough to protect against the aforementioned flanking attack, it is only a matter of time before a city falls (until aircraft, grrrrr...)
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Maybe, but that includes the whole "If you are patient enough to protect against aforementioned flanking attack", and honestly if you're putting down enough effort into defending your flanks you're going to eventually bring the city down anyways, range or no range.
     
  16. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    I think its a problem on naval units that can park in ocean tiles (looking at you Frigates) because the only counterplay to that is to have your own navy too. At least land units with range can still be flanked, advanced upon, retreated from, or fired back at. Naval units can just sit out of range forever if they are ocean-capable.
     
  17. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    yes that's the thing that didn't change. I think authority is almost fine but I can't stop myself to do some brainstorming about Authority and there are many ideas which are good or great but which require some new (heavy ? ) functions. And some people are already complaining about late game turns. :mischief:

    But I found some ideas which shouldn't add new codes and I want to share with you to get your feedbacks.

    First and foremost, I just want to share my vision of authority. I understand I don't have the monopoly of truth and that my vision is one among many others.

    Authority :

    New tree arrangement check below :

    Opener :

    > 25% Combat bonus against Barbarian and receive an announcement when a barbarian camps spawn in the revealed territory.
    > Gain culture when you kill units and clear Barbarian camps.
    > +2 production in the Capital

    Scaler :

    > Cities gain 6 food and production when their border expand. Receive 20 culture when you demand something from a city-state.

    Finisher :

    > Receive 30 science when you conquer a city, scale with blabla.
    > all the same


    Dominance :

    > All melee units heal for 20 points after killing a military units.
    > Provides a free Hall of Strength in your first 5 cities.(+2 culture, Culture costs of acquiring new tiles reduced by 25% in this city, provided a small boost of culture when completed)

    Imperium :

    > A settler appears near you Capital
    > Free "choose the building name" in all your cities ( +1 science, +1 science when you unlock a new siege weapon )

    Military Engineering :

    > Gold maintenance for roads is reduced by 50%
    > Unlock an unique unit(Army Engineer) and an unique improvement : "Choose a name"
    +2 production + 2 gold, can't be adjacent, must be built adjacent to a luxury resources.
    +1 food to adjacent Camp/Plantation/Fishing Boat,+1 Production to adjacent Mine/Quarry
    +2 science at physic
    +1 production at machinery
    etc....

    To construct "Choose the name", you have to construct an Army Engineer which is consumed when he constructs "Choose the name".

    Discipline :

    > 2 culture and 1 happiness in cities with a garrison.
    > 5 units are maintenance free.

    Honor :

    > No Change


    Global commentary :

    I think Authority shouldn't be that big gamble. It's already a big gamble to attack early. If you fail(it takes you too much time/many resources to take the cities), you can't catch up. I don't think you need to have more condition to be successful.

    Overall I tried to reduce/change 3 things :
    1 - The impact of difficulty
    2 - The RNG impact
    3 - the "it doesn't seem so much different than progress" feeling.

    In addition, I tried to not penalize authority for trying to wage wars, and to give them another unique feeling.


    Point by point commentary
    :

    1 - Why did I remove science per kill from Dominance ?

    Because its impact was too different between settler and diety. Moreover, I was feeling like I was abusing the AI tactical sense when I was min-maxing it.

    2 - Why didn't I bring back scaling bonus production for units in the scaler ?

    Because it has almost no impact early game for 2 reasons.

    First because Units are not buildings : you always want to get more building until you have nothing to build or just caravansary without piety and no resources improved by it around in a city.
    For units, you want to get "enough" units. Enough to win battle, enough to take cities, enough to rule the world. You don't want to have "too much" units because the surplus is inefficient.

    Second because if the bonus is not super high. the effect is not satisfying enough. with 20%, it's -16% time to build an military unit. And you don't want to build units in cities where you need 9 turns to train one swordsman. Moreover, you have to wait a long time until you get the full scaler.

    3 - +2 production in the capital ?

    I choose to keep some bonus to help the player to get one or two units out to hunt barbarians. It's less than a worked mine or a engineer specialist. Tradition shouldn't be fooled.

    4 - why does Hall of strength limit to 5 cities ?

    Because I don't want them to be progress :D. More seriously, I want them to be able to pick up great locations ( which could and should anger their neighbour ) and to get many plots around the cities as fast as possible to exploit the resources and to get the best from their UI without having to invest tons of gold to buy tiles.
    I think 5 is enough before starting to get some puppet. :D

    5 - Imperium building ? why did you remove the science/culture from Imperium ?

    I think the current science/culture on settling have two downsides :

    a - it encourages you to keep settling until there is no more room or your happiness doesn't allow it any longer. I don't think this policy should encourage it.
    b - it makes people wrongly think that expand is the right thing to do because the science isn't that simple to understand.

    at classical, you get 30 science. mathematics has got a cost of 125.
    A new city increase the science cost by 10%. If you settle a new city, the new cost will be 138 so 30 is great. you exceeded the cost increase by a lot.
    but now you are researching masonry,(125 base cost too ), you need to do 13 science with your new cities to make it worth. Unfortunately, you will not produce ONE science point until you get the council out(dont even try the barrack as your first building ) or until your border grow over this sexy whale.

    And you can apply the same kind of logic to culture.

    To be simple, it's a noob trap. You should not over-expand with authority. It will slow your acquisition of technologies and policies and it will make the opener and dominance less effective.

    But with this change, your new cities will have some native science and unless you were already researching techs in 5 turns, new cities (founded or stolen ) should slow you down less. You will still lose speed to acquire policies if you keep on founding new cities instead of capturing and puppeting.

    6 - Military Engineering, wth ?

    I was thinking about Hannibal, his campaign against Rome and how he was able to cross the Rhone and the Alps.
    After that, I was think about gameplay. You can overlap tradition with some growth or specialist bonus. you will overlap progress with some flat production or gold bonus.

    So an Unique Improvement seems a good solution. Tradition and progress haven't got it and you can't change the construction queue with puppet cities but you can still change the improvements.

    7 - Adjacent bonus ???


    A nice boost to luxury tiles and you will have nice mini game to min-max it. An other good reason to choose perfect city location.

    Conclusion : I've tried to give you another vision about authority without changing too much the core spirit. I hope it will lead to some good discussion.
     

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  18. merill

    merill Prince

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    Yes, please, remove range.
    The combat system is heavily built around the range of the units. allowing boats, siege and archers to be "over the system" has always baffled me. And i think it's an human-oriented one (we focus it and plan our war with it in mind).

    March and logistics are very good promotion, i think range is game-breaking (i can shoot you but you can't see me).

    Maybe a +1 movement to replace it (for land units)? It's very strong but less than +1 range.

    But for the planes, range is ok .
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    This might be true in vanilla, but I really don't agree with it for CBP, the AI both uses 3 range units well but also deal with them quite fine.
     
  20. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Agreed. Many a time have I come up against an AI army with units firing at me from outside my range simply because they made sure to "level up" before attacking me.
    AI handles the +1 range promotion quite well. They also tend to pick out my +1 units as primary targets and if I leave them unprotected they're toast. That's only anecdotal evidence which may just be my internal rage biasing my opinion because of the loss.
     

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