Policy Discussion: Liberty

[Lord Tirian]

Regarding the opener bonus: I think Stalker0's idea of a large initial bonus with smaller additional bonuses (opener: +5% , +2% for every additional policy) is a lot better than having nothing on the opener and no further bonuses within the tree. Funak's culture-only opener is boring and is a break from the policy design in the base game and our overhaul - openers always provide some actual bonus.

I'm a fan of having less flat bonuses and more percentage bonuses, though. It makes the tree feel less "specific".

Since I am not getting any support to change the 5 culture opener I will yield on that one, and we can leave it in for now.

Personally, I'd actually set it to 5 per building and 10 per tech. Somehow, I feel since techs can't scale up with your empire-size, having a slightly bigger bonus makes the tech bonus feel less marginal.

 

[Funak]

Regarding the opener bonus: I think Stalker0's idea of a large initial bonus with smaller additional bonuses (opener: +5% , +2% for every additional policy) is a lot better than having nothing on the opener and no further bonuses within the tree. Funak's culture-only opener is boring and is a break from the policy design in the base game and our overhaul - openers always provide some actual bonus.

His opener is extremely strong for just one point, that's mostly why I wanted to bring it in line. If you could actually divide something evenly by 6 it would be great. (and no I don't think a 12% bonus would actually be viable, weird numbers aren't fun)

I'm a fan of having less flat bonuses and more percentage bonuses, though. It makes the tree feel less "specific".

The tree is an opener, openers shouldn't keep scaling indefinetly (imo), a flat bonus is more useless early on while the %buildingspeed in the opener gets strongest over time.

Personally, I'd actually set it to 5 per building and 10 per tech. Somehow, I feel since techs can't scale up with your empire-size, having a slightly bigger bonus makes the tech bonus feel less marginal.

Just decide on a number and go for it already, feels like we are arguing about which mysterybox to buy.

 

[Lord Tirian]

True about the scaling bonus, but I still think there needs to be something on the opener (and yeah, I'm coming around to have rewards to follow a tree besides the finisher... I'm starting to think it'd be nice to have something like that for Honour as well).

Just decide on a number and go for it already, feels like we are arguing about which mysterybox to buy.

I think the numbers need to be tested anyway, but I think, code-wise, it's genuinely useful to be able to separate them - even if we end up setting them to the same number.

 

[Funak]

True about the scaling bonus, but I still think there needs to be something on the opener (and yeah, I'm coming around to have rewards to follow a tree besides the finisher... I'm starting to think it'd be nice to have something like that for Honour as well).

That was the intention. a percentual military unit production was the general idea (Or all units maybe?)

I think the numbers need to be tested anyway, but I think, code-wise, it's genuinely useful to be able to separate them - even if we end up setting them to the same number.

Exacly, tests tests tests.

 

[Gazebo]

Opener: 5 culture for every completed building and tech. +3% bonus for every additional policy taken in Liberty

1) Free worker appears near capital and +25% tile improvement.

2) 1 production in all cities +1 production on workshop.

3) Connected cities have no expansion unhappiness. Road and Railroad maintenance reduced by 50%.

4) Gain 100 Golden Age Points and science equal to your Global Science output when you expend a Great Person.

5) +1 food in every city newly settled cities start with one extra pop

Finisher: Free Great Person. Great Engineers can be purchased with faith.

That's what I would do instead, buildingmaintenance is too powerful for this tree. (continues to scale all game)
Also think 75/75% on the GP expend would be a better fit, but that's just a hunch.

So, unless there's another version milling about I haven't seen, the new policy functions I need to add for this are:

1.) GP expenditure to GAP/Science
2.) Culture from building/tech completion.

Easy enough. Anything else for Liberty?
G

 

[Funak]

So, unless there's another version milling about I haven't seen, the new policy functions I need to add for this are:

1.) GP expenditure to GAP/Science
2.) Culture from building/tech completion.

Easy enough. Anything else for Liberty?
G

Not unless you have a better idea yourself, I'm personally not that happy about how it turned out (think 4. could be changed to something more thematic)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Regarding early vs late game balance: coupling a flat bonus with a percentage one is very useful in order to balance an effect, the vanilla republic policy is a good example.

 

[Funak]

Regarding early vs late game balance: coupling a flat bonus with a percentage one is very useful in order to balance an effect, the vanilla republic policy is a good example.

The vanilla republic policy is a 5% bonus when building buildings, we already have a 15% bonus to that in the opener.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I wasn't referring specifically to that, just talking in general. For example civ4 creative gave +2flat, a popular tweak was adding +10% on top of that in order to make it matter in late game.

 

[Gazebo]

My take:

Opener: Receive 5 Culture every time you construct a Building or research a Technology. +3% Production bonus toward constructing Buildings in all Cities for every Liberty policy taken.

-- Looks good.

Free Labor: A free worker appears near your Capital. +25% tile improvementspeed.

-- Looks good.

Civil Engineers: +1 Production in all Cities. Road and Railroad maintenance reduced by 50%.

-- This was weak. I've tweaked.

City Planning: All existing cities receive +1 Citizen, and newly founded cities begin with an additional Citizen.

-- Reworded.

Representation: Immediately enter a Golden Age. Border Growth generates a small boost to a City's current Production and Growth. Border Growth rate doubled during a Golden Age.

-- Expanding borders is an untapped element of this branch. I've tapped, and gives the player a nice window of growth.

Meritocracy: When you expend a Great Person, receive Golden Age Points equal to 20% of the points needed for your next Golden Age, and Science equal to your current Science output.

-- Fine, but should be a % for the GAP.

Finisher: Receive a Free Great Person of your choice. Great Engineers can be purchased with faith starting in the Industrial Era.

 

[Stalker0]

My only concerns are a numbers game at this point (such as we give from +1 hammer 5% to +1 15%) but nothing so strong it can't be reviewed after more play testing.

The borders idea is interesting...maybe it should go into honor? (We keep wanting to add more non conquests yields to honor. With this we could add that in to go with the "expand by any means theme...which would include borders"

Further it gives a bonus when making citadels...which I am in major favor of.


The more and more I think about it, the more I am falling in love with it...for honor)

 

[Gazebo]

The key is 'natural' border growth, though – the DLL handles natural and forced growth differently. I don't think this would work as well for Honor, honestly.
G

 

[Funak]

You removed all the happiness, probably not a good idea. I think the removal of expansionunhappines makes sense tbh and is a pretty balanced number.

Personally don't like cityplanning because it rewards saving the policy until later on.

 

[Stalker0]

The key is 'natural' border growth, though – the DLL handles natural and forced growth differently. I don't think this would work as well for Honor, honestly.
G

Is it not possible to code it for "forced growth" aka citadels or tile buying?

 

[mystikx21]

There's no happiness effect. That will be needed.

I'm not a huge fan of the border effect. It overlaps tradition's steady border growth a bit too much. I do not mind the bonus from border growth though.

 

[Stalker0]

Including some Gazebo love:

Liberty V1.6


Opener: Receive 5 Culture every time you construct a Building or research a Technology. +3% Production bonus toward constructing Buildings in all Cities for every Liberty policy taken.

Free Labor: A free worker appears near your Capital. +25% tile improvement.

Civil Engineers: +1 Production in all Cities. Road and Railroad maintenance reduced by 50%.

City Planning: All existing cities receive +1 Citizen, and newly founded cities begin with an additional Citizen.

Representation: 1 happiness for every 10 citizens in your empire. +1 movement to Workers to Settlers.

Meritocracy: When you expend a Great Person, receive Golden Age Points equal to 20% of the points needed for your next Golden Age, and Science equal to your current Science output.

Finisher: Receive a Free Great Person of your choice. Great Engineers can be purchased with faith starting in the Industrial Era.

 

[Funak]

Not a big fan of representation, it feels really weak. Also civil engineers feels like a weird combination.
And I'm still not sure what I think about city planning.

EDIT: Imho the grow all cities bonus feels like something that should be in an ideology not an opener. Cites start at higher pop was a completely different thing, it promoted early expansion and getting your city up to speed slightly faster.

 

[Gazebo]

Aww, I miss the border growth stuff. Thought it was fun and 'improvement-centric.' Getting close, though!

G

 

[Stalker0]

Aww, I miss the border growth stuff. Thought it was fun and 'improvement-centric.' Getting close, though!

G

Check out my new honor

 

[mystikx21]

You could add the border growth "bonus" (the effect you get when the border expands) to Representation.