Polish - Soviet war 1919-1921

[LDeska]

Yesterday was anniversary of 15.VIII.1920 Battle of Warsaw 1920, known in Poland as 'Miracle at the Vistula' (Cud nad Wisł&#261. It was decisive moment of Polish - Soviet war. I wonder what do people know about it - especially those who live in Western Europe and USA - do you know that such war existed?

To be brief: in 1918 WW1 ended and three partitioners of Poland (Germany, Russia, Austria) were weakened. Marshal Piłsudski used that moment to form Polish Army and fight for independence, which he proclaimed 11.XI.1918. Successful uprisings in Wielkopolska (The Greater Poland - area around Pozna&#324 and massive and awaited actions in whole Poland caused that Poland returned to the political map of Europe. What is worth mentioning - Poland didn't occurred as a result of WW1 winners decisions, it fought it's independence from Germany, Russia an Austria on it's own.

The Soviets didn't accepted the fact that partitions are over. The Polish-Soviet War lasted from 1919 till 1921. After initial victories of Red Army, Poles succeeded to win a Battle of Warsaw and from that moment Red Army was defeated and had to retreat far into the Russian soil:

Maximum extent of Polish offensive:
black line in the east - final borders of Polish Second Republic
red line - maximum extent of Polish offensive
look at the distance between Warsaw and red line - this is almost 1000 kilometers...

Spoiler :

The Battle of Warsaw was built over a very clever plan made by Marshal Piłsudski - he set up a trap for general Tukhachevski. Encircled his army and destroyed it:

Spoiler :

Aftermatch: this is as far as I know only war in open field in history of Red Army that was lost. (They lost in Afghanistan too, but talibans hid in mountains, lowlands were taken by Russians very quickly). Poland regained it's lands from the times before partitions and became democratic, capitalistic parliamentary-cabinet republic (then changed in 1926 to presidential-authoritarian after Coup d'Etat).
I've heard that if Soviets would overrun Poland, then they would use very bad mood after WW1 in Germany and France to trigger communistic revolutions in those states and then we would have communistic regime in whole Europe. For those of you who want to write that we had Nazis in Europe, so who knows what would be better: communism was much harder to get rid of - it took 6 years of war to defeat Nazis, but it took 44 years (1945-1989) for Poland to get rid of communism... additionally communists killed many times more people than Nazis (ok, they acted longer).

Few interesting quotes from wiki:

The Polish forces grew from approximately 100,000 in 1918 to over 500,000 in early 1920. In 20 August, 1920, Polish army had reached the strength of 737,767, so there was rough numerical parity between the Polish army and the Soviet forces acting against it.

The Polish Army was made up of soldiers who had formerly served in the various partitioning empires, supported by inexperienced volunteers and recruits. Logistics were a nightmare, relying on whatever equipment was left over from World War I and could be captured. The Polish Army employed guns made in five countries, and rifles manufactured in six, each using different ammunition. Before the Battle of Warsaw the 1st Legions Infantry Division comprised three regiments, one of which was armed with German Mauser rifles, a second with French Lebel rifles (carbines), while the third used Russian Mosin rifles. Each make of weapon took ammunition of a different caliber.

American pilots that fought in Polish Army (in Tadeusz Kościuszko Squadron of the Polish Air Force):

Spoiler :

Further info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War_in_1920

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I knew about this war, but not a lot. I just finished reading a book on Germany and Austria-Hungary in World War I, and how one of their war aims was to each take a big chunk of Poland from Russia. But of course, all three empires fell apart.

 

[Provolution]

The Soviet General was quite young during this war, being born 1895, he was merely 24 when the Polish-Soviet War began and 27 when it ended. This suggests he did not have the experience or insight to win it.

Shame that Stalin killed him off just before WW2, in 1937 during the Great Purge, as he was about to develop some good skills.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

recall that the Polish started this war... (Though, I admit that Lenin did sorta want the war so he could extend the Communist Revolution to the rest of Europe)... My people lost and won the War (I'm Polish-Russian if you haven't heard by know)

 

[silver 2039]

The Soviets didn't accepted the fact that partitions are over. The Polish-Soviet War lasted from 1919 till 1921. After initial victories of Red Army, Poles succeeded to win a Battle of Warsaw and from that moment Red Army was defeated and had to retreat far into the Russian soil:

As I recall Poland invaded the Russia while it was weakened from the civil war in a desire to create a "Greater Poland" which included Belarus and Ukraine. Your letting yourself be blinded by nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Offensive_(1920)

The 1920 Kiev Offensive (or Kiev Operation) that is sometimes considered to have started the Soviet-Polish War[1] was an attempt by the newly re-emerged Poland, led by Józef Piłsudski, to seize central and eastern Ukraine,[1] torn in the warring among various factions, both domestic and foreign, from the Soviet control.

The stated goal of the operation was to create a formally independent Ukraine dominated by Poland,[2] although much of Ukrainian population were ambivalent as many viewed the Polish advance as a new occupation[3] aimed at subbordinating Ukraine to under the Polish rule[4] while others greeted the Polish and allied Ukrainian forces as liberators.[5] With their loyalties divided, Ukrainian fought for both sides of the conflict.[6]

 

[warpus]

As I recall Poland invaded the Russia while it was weakened from the civil war in a desire to create a "Greater Poland" which included Belarus and Ukraine. Your letting yourself be blinded by nationalism.

The war was a result of both countries' expansionist policies.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The war was a result of both countries' expansionist policies.

True, although I must admit I am a little more sympathetic to the Poles as a) they had been subjugated by Russia for almost 150 years at that point and b) I am not really a Bolshevik fan.

If I recall, that was also the last war that had a cavalry charge in a major battle.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

True, although I must admit I am a little more sympathetic to the Poles as a) they had been subjugated by Russia for almost 150 years at that point and b) I am not really a Bolshevik fan.

If I recall, that was also the last war that had a cavalry charge in a major battle.

I think that it really shouldn't matter if Russia was ran by the Bolsheviks or not, or the previous control by Russia. The Pole's were the aggressors (Though, I agree that both sides sorta wanted the war, but the Pole's did start it... Though, we can be sure that Lenin would have declared war, but he may have, we just cant be certain.) Its sorta wrong to lay the blame on one side because of their government when they didn't start it.

I don't sympathize with either side personally.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, I really don't get that involved in past wars - there have been precious few wars in which one side could claim to be blameless.

 

[LDeska]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Polish_War

The war was the result of conflicting expansionist attempts. Poland, whose statehood had just been re-established following the Partitions of Poland in the late 18th century by the Treaty of Versailles, sought to secure territories which she had lost at the time of partitions; the Soviets' aim was to control those same territories, which had been part of Imperial Russia until the turbulent events of the Great War.

So Poland wanted to revert the partitions and secure areas which were inside borders of First Republic. Is it an aggression? I think not. An act of aggression were the partitions in end of XVIII century. When Second Republic was born (after 123 years) it was resurrection, not aggression.

I'm only sad about Ukraine in this conflict - both sides wanted to use it and finally Ukraine was overrun by Soviets and Ukrainian SSR was formed... Piłsudski should do something about it (as he claimed he will)... The other thing is that after 123 years of occupation and 2 years of war with Soviet Union Poland probably wasn't able to do much more than it did. Country as whole Europe was ruined after WW1 and Poland needed a lot work to recover from crisis, unemployment and all the effects of depression that occurred in whole Europe after WW1.

 

[red_elk]

The Soviets didn't accepted the fact that partitions are over. The Polish-Soviet War lasted from 1919 till 1921.
........
So Poland wanted to revert the partitions and secure areas which were inside borders of First Republic. Is it an aggression? I think not.

Simple logic.
Soviets were at war because they didn't accept the fact that partitions are over. (Bad)
Poland starts war to revert the partition - not an agression.

 

[LDeska]

I agree - it was rather an uprising than an aggression. When some country A occupies country B and B starts war to resurrect - it is called uprising, not aggression.
I think that aggression is when country A invades country B.

Such uprising were quite often in Poland during partitions - especially in part taken by Russia: for example "Powstanie Kościuszkowskie" (Kościuszko Uprising) which should be the one best known to broader audience as Kościuszko was also a colonel in Continental Army on the side of Washington.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kościuszko_Uprising

 

[TheLastOne36]

you love creating these topics don't you?

 

[silver 2039]

So invading Ukraine and Bealarus which didn't contain ethnic Poles wasn't aggression?

 

[red_elk]

When Poland wants to revert the partition, you call it "uprising". When soviets do the same, you call it "aggression". Why?

 

[The Yankee]

That's some good reading, there, LDeska. I myself have been fascinated by this war and I'll likely seek out some materials for reading.

Maybe XIII/KD/The Power That Be will post this into the History Articles thread?

 

[sydhe]

When Poland wants to revert the partition, you call it "uprising". When soviets do the same, you call it "aggression". Why?

Poland also took over Vilnius about the same time. There was a coup there that produced a puppet state that Poland later annexed. Vilnius city was mostly Yiddish and Polish speaking but I believe the countryside was mostly Lithuanian-speaking. It was a really complicated situation at the time (there were Belorussians and Russians involved as well) which was mostly resolved after World War II in the same manner as a lot of changes at the time: forced expulsion of inconvenient ethnic groups; in this case the Poles by the Soviets. The Jewish population had been annihilated during World War II.

 

[TheLastOne36]

So invading Ukraine and Bealarus which didn't contain ethnic Poles wasn't aggression?

It was originally our land and many poles used to live there before the soviets came.

When Poland wants to revert the partition, you call it "uprising". When soviets do the same, you call it "aggression". Why?

Russia invaded poland in the 17th century along with prussia and austria. Poland was trying to reverse the partition, The soviets were trying to stop the uprising, So Russia was the aggresive one.

 

[silver 2039]

It was originally our land and many poles used to live there before the soviets came.

Several hundred years ago maybe, but not at that time. The Ukrainian people weren't very appreciative of it.

Russia invaded poland in the 17th century along with prussia and austria. Poland was trying to reverse the partition, The soviets were trying to stop the uprising, So Russia was the aggresive one.

Thats twisted logic. It was Poland that started the war.

 

[warpus]

Thats twisted logic. It was Poland that started the war.

Not really. There were dozens of conflicts going on in central/eastern europe at the time.. Both poland and the soviet union had troops in the Ukraine when they realized that they were 'at full-scale war' with eachother.