Politics Mod request

DP2's idea sounds like one I would prefer.

Would it run something like this(?):

Discover Agriculture and a farmer's faction is formed. Discover Hunting and a hunter's/nomad's faction is formed. And so on.

Each faction has it's own agenda, represented by pop-up choices. Indulging a request causes happiness, good things, and can increase the presence of the faction in your civ. However doing so requires resources/actions. Suppressing a request can cause anger, revolt, and decrease the presence of the faction in your civ.

Over game time, pop-ups related to the more dominant factions in your civ will occur more often. And over time some factions may become obsolete or upgrade into newer factions.

Some possible facitions: nomads (Hunting), farmers (Agriculture), slavers (Bronze Working), scholars (Literature), merchants (Currency), craftsmen (Guilds), royalists (Monarchy), theocratics (Divine Right), up to ideologists (Anarchists, Libertarians, Marxists, Abolitionists, etc...). Indulging a faction to a degree that it becomes dominant might unlock special abilities, national wonders, etc...

For instance the Slavers might unlock a Slave Market wonder and/or the ability to capture enemy units as slave workers. The Theocratics might unlock a Crusader/Templar UU. Farmers might unlock a Granary that sells excess instances of food resources at 1 gold each. Etc...

You've essentially got the jist of it. I wasn't planning on factions broken down by occupation. In fact, I was planning to add numerous new specialists (like Farmers, Laborers, Scholars, etc) that would have an impact on the larger, broader factions as well as respond positively and negatively to civics decisions.
 
Well I have to say, DPII, that I do love the sound of your idea-the idea of having factions competing for attention in your society has long been a dream of mine for Civilization. Whatever assistance I can give, I'm happy to give it. I guess I was "thinking small" to keep within my own limited modding abilities ;). For me, my hope is to simply get my ideology mod working sometime over the next 6 months-but if my mods can in any way be used within your much more comprehensive mods, then I'd be extremely honoured :).

Aussie.
 
Well I have to say, DPII, that I do love the sound of your idea-the idea of having factions competing for attention in your society has long been a dream of mine for Civilization. Whatever assistance I can give, I'm happy to give it. I guess I was "thinking small" to keep within my own limited modding abilities ;). For me, my hope is to simply get my ideology mod working sometime over the next 6 months-but if my mods can in any way be used within your much more comprehensive mods, then I'd be extremely honoured :).

Aussie.

What I need more than anything else is ideas, and I need a little shared sanity as well. I need people who are willing to slap me and tell me I've gone too far ;) I need somebody to say "Yes, that's a great idea, but will it play well?"

Some of the "nuttier" ideas include having factions "own" buildings in cities and improvements. This would increase the wealth and influence of a faction and thus make them more powerful. Whether that's good or bad news for you is dependent on whether you've been making use of them or trying to contain them. They could potentially unseat you and leave you as a single leader unit on the map with your own private warchest (that you'd do well to build up while you're still in power for just such a rainy day), and you can begin trying to wrest power from them. I've also thought that it might be interesting to have a game mode in which you start as essentially a mid to low-level noble and have to work your way up the ladder. (So essentially your civilization would be run by the AI until you take control). But again, this is my nuttier vision...

My more conservative plans involve some of the things already discussed. But there's still a lot of questions to answer:

1) Should there be multiple instances of different faction types? Multiple guilds, multiple military orders, etc.

2) Should the influence of a given faction be city-based or player-based? This would allow different cities to be dominated by different factions.

3) What direct benefits or penalties should factions give? I hadn't really been planning on direct effects like extra commerces/yields, unlocked units/buildings/techs etc.
 
Hmmm, my feeling is to stick to the old "KIS" approach (Keep It Simple)-within reason of course. A simple defining of factions might go:

Workers (Farmers, Labourers); Professionals (Artisans, Bureaucrats); Military; State Clergy; Minority Clergy; The Elite (The "ruling classes"-dependent on era); The Intelligentsia (Scientists, teachers, artists).

Some additional, overlapping factions might be Free Marketeers/Protectionists; Fundamentalists/Moderates; Nationalists/Internationalists; Hawks/Doves; Environmentalists/Industrialists, Liberal/Authoritarian; Left Wing/Right Wing.

To be fair, I definitely think my Ideology Mod (when I get around to it) could fit in with such a system, as the ideologies running in a certain city and the ideology your state runs will define the strength of various "factions" and "sub-factions".

An example of an event linked to one of the sub-factions might go something like this:

A coalition of protectionists is demanding the government raise tariffs in order to halt the flood of cheap consumer goods entering the country. Do you:
A. Agree to set a low level of Tariffs [+1 gold from Customs House; -1 Gold from International Trade; +2 Influence for Protectionists. +1 Influence to Labourers and Elite.]

B. Agree to set a high level of Tariffs [+2 gold from Customs House; -2 gold from international trade; +4 Influence for Protectionists. +2 Influence each to Labourers and Elite]

C. Fund a "Buy <Civilization Name>" campaign to sell more goods domestically and overseas [-300 Gold; +1 Trade Route (domestic) per city; +1 Influence to Nationalists.]

D. Ban the import of all foreign goods into your nation [Lose all international trade routes; +1 Happiness in all cities for 10 turns; -1 Diplomatic relations; +2 Influence each to Nationalists and Protectionists.]

E. Do nothing [-1 Happiness for 10 turns; -1 Influence to Protectionists]
 
Where's the emoticon that shows a smilie pouring a glass of scotch and rubbing his temples in confusion? :ack:

Hmmm, my feeling is to stick to the old "KIS" approach (Keep It Simple)-within reason of course.

Isn't it Keep It Simple, Stupid? ;)

A simple defining of factions might go:

Workers (Farmers, Labourers); Professionals (Artisans, Bureaucrats); Military; State Clergy; Minority Clergy; The Elite (The "ruling classes"-dependent on era); The Intelligentsia (Scientists, teachers, artists).

Well, I was planning on adding a number of new specialists to represent these basic groups. I was planning to make it so that working particular tiles would give particular citizens. So you could have every farm produce one Farm specialist in that city, each Mine produce on Laborer, etc.

I was planning, in addition to the Merchant, Scientist, Priest:
Farmers - from Farms obviously
Laborers - (from Mines, Factories & other Industrial buildings)
Professionals - (basically representing Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers)
Students - (from Universities, but could be renamed to Scholars and lumped with Teachers for example)
Bureaucrat

Possible additions I'm on the fence about:
Slaves and Peasants - this would be a contrast to Farmers who would be considered free citizens, and these two would only exist under certain civics.
Criminals
Police

Now, some of these would give what I would call direct penalties and bonuses like the existing specialists, but others would exist purely for demographic purposes and affect the strength of Factions as well as Civics (I added the ability for certain Civics to give +/- for every instance of a particular specialist).

Some additional, overlapping factions might be Free Marketeers/Protectionists; Fundamentalists/Moderates; Nationalists/Internationalists; Hawks/Doves; Environmentalists/Industrialists, Liberal/Authoritarian; Left Wing/Right Wing.

To be fair, I definitely think my Ideology Mod (when I get around to it) could fit in with such a system, as the ideologies running in a certain city and the ideology your state runs will define the strength of various "factions" and "sub-factions".

An example of an event linked to one of the sub-factions might go something like this:

Well, maybe I should give my ideas for factions and that might make my goals a bit more clear:

Central Religious Authority - comes in when you set a state religion. Prefers religion-friendly civics. A civic like Theocracy will vastly expand it's power.
Military Order - this appears after you've gone to war for the first time. They are usually friendly toward the Central Religious Authority and the player.
Noble - These will be the biggest threats to the player's power in the early game. They have no ideological leaning. They just want your job. Their is one noble faction per city.
Guild - the Guild comes in relatively early and is strengthened by your civilizations' access to resources and certain production buildings. The Guild will lose power and eventually be made obsolete with Corporation.
Secret Police - the Secret Police appears only under certain gov't types.
Army - this represents the institution of the Army rather than the individual units although its power is based on how many military units you have in play. Depending on the civilization you build and the internal struggles you encounter, the Army may play a very limited role in national politics or a very big one. Either way, you want them on your side.
Labor Union - the Labor Union comes in late in the game. They favor protectionist economic policies.
Corporation - I developed this one prior to BtS, but I think it still has merit. You would, of course, have to have a corporation before this faction would appear.
Conservative Party - the Conservative Party has some preferences about civics, but their attitude is based largely on maintaining the status quo whatever that may be.
Liberal Party - the Liberal Party has some general preferences too, but to some degree they will chafe under whatever civics happen to be in place and will pressure for a new set of civics.
Communist Party - the Communist Party has a very particular set of civics it wants in place.
Fascist Party - the Fascist Party basically is the right-wing version of the Communists... very specific civics goals.

The nice thing about having Faction Types is that it's vague enough that modders can base them on purely ideological grounds or more based on social/political roles as I have done.
 
Well, it is usually KISS, but a modder like yourself is anything but stupid ;).

Your ideas sound extremely intriguing. It definitely sounds like we're largely on the same page with this. Not sure whether you need the political parties as actual factions, though, as it can be largely assumed that certain factions will align with specific political parties within democratic Civics. Still, that said it sounds like you have more than the seeds of an amazing idea. I'll definitely keep watching this thread to see your progress and to post any ideas I get.

Aussie.
 
Your ideas sound extremely intriguing. It definitely sounds like we're largely on the same page with this. Not sure whether you need the political parties as actual factions, though, as it can be largely assumed that certain factions will align with specific political parties within democratic Civics. Still, that said it sounds like you have more than the seeds of an amazing idea. I'll definitely keep watching this thread to see your progress and to post any ideas I get.

Aussie.

Well, I think my posting here technically counts as threadjacking ;)
But I'll keep you up to date anyway.
 
I don't think of it as threadjacking because we're basically discussing what my origenal post asked for. what you guys are talking about is just an expanded comprehensive form of my simple desire, lol.
 
I'd like to see a formal system of elections - something beyond the player's direct control (only indirect). Various parties could be set up and derive their popularity from various sources. Like the Communist party could get support from factories, so the more factories you build the more support the Communists get. The more farms you get the more the Agrarian party gets, etc.

The game will keep track various factors (if you are at war and successful the conservatives get more popularity, if you are suffering defeat pacifists become more popular). Then every so often there are elections. You have limited ability to influence the elections but mostly they go off of whichever party is more popular at that moment.

Each party has various agendas that affect the game. Like the pacifist party could force you to end a war, communists could force you to change your civic to state property, etc. You'd also get various bonuses per party (like what Aussie and others mentioned earlier).

You can always resist the results of the election, but then you have a lot of unhappiness in your cities, some units will revolt, and you'll have to quash the rebellion.
 
DP2, if you start your own thread for you mod, I'd be glad to contribute ideas. I love the game design side of things.
 
The game will keep track various factors (if you are at war and successful the conservatives get more popularity, if you are suffering defeat pacifists become more popular). Then every so often there are elections. You have limited ability to influence the elections but mostly they go off of whichever party is more popular at that moment.

I would say that general war weariness would be the best way of measuring support for a pro-war party/anti-war party. Below I explain my rationale for determining who exactly is pro-war.

Below is a preliminary XML set up:
Spoiler :

<FactionInfo>
<Type>FACTION_CENTRAL_RELIGIOUS_INSTITUTION</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CENTRAL_RELIGIOUS_INSITUTION</Description>
<PrereqTech>NONE</PrereqTech>
<ObsoleteTech>NONE</ObsoleteTech>
<PrereqStateReligion>NONE</PrereqStateReligion>
<PrereReligion>NONE</PrereqReligion>
<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
<PrereqBuilding>NONE</PrereqBuilding>
<PrereqOrBuildings/>
<PrereqBonus>NONE</PrereqBonus>
<PerereqOrBonuses/>
<iPrereqWarCount>0</iPrereqWarCount>
<iPrereqReligionCount>0</iPrereqReligionCount>
<iPrereqCorporationCount>0</iPrereqCorporationCount>
<bStateReligion>1</bStateReligion> Requires state religion
<bAssembly>0</bAssembly> Can participate in the Assembly (Senate/Parliament/etc.)
<CivicInvalids/> Deactivates the faction under specified civics
Influences: faction gains influence for each instance of any of these items
<BuildingInfluences/>
<TechInfluences/>
<ImprovementInfluences/>
<UnitInfluences/>
<CivicInfluences/>
<CivicAttitudes/> Base attitude towards civics
<FactionAttitudes/> Base attitude of the faction type towards other faction types.
<RivalFactions/>
<CivilizationFactioNames/> Allows modders to have civ-specific names for each faction type.
<FactionLeaderTitles/> Allows for civ-specific names for faction leader titles
</FactionInfo>


A faction's attitude towards particular civics will vary somewhat during the game based on other aspects of their temperment. A faction's attitude towards other factions will vary from the base levels depending on in-game situations. So you could have factions that naturally mesh well suffer a falling out or two factions that are natural enemies make strange bed fellows... at least for some time.

Factions also have opinions towards other players' governments that factor in the other players' civics, leading faction, past wars and negative or positive interactions, and base attitudes towards outsiders. So if you go to war with someone a faction really doesn't like, they'll be more likely to state behind you. The reverse will be true if they like the other player.

The support or opposition to war will also depend on how much they like the player as well. During the American Civil War, you have a wing of the Democratic party pushing for an end to hostilities called Peace Democrats. Now, most of the men who went on to lead the Confederacy had themselves been Democrats, and the two groups were closely aligned ideologically as well as through marriages and friendships. It wasn't that those Democrats were anti-war. Most of those same men had eagerly supported war with Mexico to claim those vast western territories where they could expand slavery. If it'd been a Republican New England that decided they were through with a Constitution that supported the barbarism of slavery and a political system weighted greatly in favor of a Southern aristocracy, the Republicans would probably have been the supporters of a peace initiative.

I could give more modern examples, but I'd want to avoid a conversation diverging from mod discussion ;) The point is that a big part of our opinions of right and wrong are dependent on us and them. When they do it, it's wrong. When we do it, it's right. So for the most part, I think factions should base war support on A) who is the domestic faction pushing for the war, and B) who is the player on the opposite side of the war.
 
Hmm, I agree with the historical basis, but for a mod's purposes it seems like it could make it needlessly complicated.

Well, but look at it this way: If I spend time courting favor with one particular faction, that faction should then stand behind me and give me the benefit of the doubt. Also, taking into account the target of a war is important too because it gives me potentially "safe" war targets and potentially "unsafe" war targets in terms of how my base and my rivals are going to react.

To me, it is more intuitive for my close political allies to back and a my political enemies to denounce a war than to simply have one group respond exactly the same way regardless of my relations with them and their opinion of the enemy civ.

EDIT: It would also make more sense that my political enemies would be able to ride that wave of popular discontent with a war to victory at the polls rather than the ruling party, which is exactly what would happen if you were aligned with the doves but still waging an unpopular war.
 
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