POLL: Newton's or ToE? With FREE or SABER?

Getting Medicine from SABER offers us a surprising chance. What will we do?

  • Complete Newton's

    Votes: 4 80.0%
  • Keep prebuild / switch to ToE

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • don't know / don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .
Wow, General - you've been very productive!

I'm fine with sending this off tonight - before we play the save.

If we need to switch a tech around after it's signed, I'm sure SABER will be agreeable (as long as we have good reasons for the switch).

To profit! To Glory! To Victory! :salute:
 
With us already getting a better deal on beakers than the SCIAA suggests, AND getting Hoovers, I doubt we want to push our luck on trying to get gold also.

Would The Council support tipping our hand to Saber and letting them know we'll be finishing Newton's next turn?
I don't see the great harm in this, since you can't rush wonders in C3C, even if this deal with Saber falls apart we'll only have given them 1 turn of advance notice.

The benefit of tipping our hand is that I think it makes Saber much more likely to want to deal with us. We scare them of the prospect of what it will mean if we stick with FREE, and show them that they having nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I'd propose starting our letter to Saber like this…
Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

We're still waiting on your answer about a pre-build that could be used for the Theory of Evolution… but we thought we'd tip our hand a bit, and tell you why it matters.

Confidential Disclosure:
The Council anticipates the completion of Newton's University next turn (161). We also know that team FREE has an aggressive pre-build in place for the ToE. After completing this wonder, they will use it to advance to Electronics, and then use a Scientific Great Leader they drew earlier in the game to rush finish Hoover Dam.

In order to thwart this massive leap forward, it is essential that team FREE be denied the ToE. We briefly considered giving up on Newton's University in favor of trying to beat FREE to the ToE, but it would obviously be much more appealing to both get Newton AND deny the ToE to FREE.
There will be broad and likely severe repercussions to us bailing out on our alliance with FREE… but we're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE.

If we can't work out a deal with someone, we'll have to stick with our alliance with FREE and hope we can somehow overcome their Hoover advantage in the Modern Age.

This is where you (hopefully) come in!
We're hoping you have a pre-build going. (we understand that it's probably a pre-build for Newton, but remember: if we can't work out a deal here, you're going to lose it anyway, unless you're completing it this turn)
We'd like to propose a deal where you divert that pre-build towards beating FREE to the Theory of Evolution.
If you're open to it, this would do a couple wonderful things for you. 1) It would save you shields you're likely to lose (or be forced to dump into a stinky wonder). 2) It would lock you into an exclusive advantageous alliance with us for much faster tech advancement. And 3) it would radically change the current FREE-dominated dynamic of the game giving you a more realistic potential path to victory.

And on that note, we'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:
…

How's that for radical? :lol:

But if we're seriously looking to totally shake up this game – I think we're going to need to put our cards on the table for Saber.

Just my 2 cents!
Thoughts?
 
I like the lead in. You're starting to sell me on the idea of switching to SABER. I vote to send this long letter. I'm voting to complete Newton's though.
 
:agree: a big part of switching to saber, imo, is the ability to stop FREE and still get Newtons.
 
General_W, I really think you've drafted a beauty here. It makes a lot of sense to tell Saber all this - they already know we're holding the game for some reason, and I expect they will come to a quick decision.

Just a couple of comments on the specifics of the letter:
1. There will be broad and likely severe repercussions to us bailing out on our alliance with FREE… but we're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE. I don't think any alliance proposal should include the phrase 'bail out on our alliance'. Maybe a rephrasing would paint a clearer picture? ...severe repercussions to us shifting our allegiance due to changing circumstances...

2. [this is really a minor point - purely stylistic, so I hope I don't annoy :D]
We'd like to propose a deal where you divert that pre-build This could be more forceful: We are proposing a deal where...

3. If you're open to it, this would do a couple wonderful things for you. I know it's a small matter, but to me 'a couple' refers to 2, and 'a few' refers to 3, 'several' refers to 4, etc.

Again, I apologize for insisting on mentioning the last two, but I feel the first suggestion has real merit. I don't want Saber to think that The Council is actually bailing on a signed agreement when that's not the case at all.
 
Brilliant letter. But what if Saber screws us to go to free.
 
Thanks Cubsfan :)
And, excellent points Peter.
Far from being offended – I appreciate anything that makes the letter more clear. After all, we want Saber to focus on our ideas… not General_W’s marginal English skills :D

I’ll make all those changes – especially the first one. Very very good point.

So – here’s the deal… we’ve got wide consensus on the SCIAA – but only 3 people have spoken up in favor of the introduction part.
It’s now 10:00pm here on the west coast USA, and I’ll be going to bed soon.

I’m posting the “final” version here in spoiler tags so that if one of our European or East Coast USA councilors sees that this letter has gotten more support in the morning before I’m up and online, they can go ahead and send it off.

I, of course, support sending this letter also :D

Spoiler :

Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

We're still waiting on your answer about a pre-build that could be used for the Theory of Evolution… but we thought we'd tip our hand a bit, and tell you why it matters.

Confidential Disclosure:
The Council anticipates the completion of Newton's University next turn (161). We also know that team FREE has an aggressive pre-build in place for the ToE. After completing this wonder, they will use it to advance to Electronics, and then use a Scientific Great Leader they drew earlier in the game to rush finish Hoover Dam.

In order to thwart this massive leap forward, it is essential that team FREE be denied the ToE. We briefly considered giving up on Newton's University in favor of trying to beat FREE to the ToE, but it would obviously be much more appealing to both get Newton AND deny the ToE to FREE.
There will be broad and likely severe repercussions to us shifting our allegiance due to changing circumstances… but we're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE.

If we can't work out a deal with someone, we'll have to stick with our alliance with FREE and hope we can somehow overcome their Hoover advantage in the Modern Age.

This is where you (hopefully) come in!
We're hoping you have a pre-build going. (we understand that it's probably a pre-build for Newton, but remember: if we can't work out a deal here, you're going to lose it anyway, unless you're completing it this turn)
We are proposing a deal where you divert that pre-build towards beating FREE to the Theory of Evolution.
If you're open to it, this would do a few wonderful things for you. 1) It would save you shields you're likely to lose (or be forced to dump into a stinky wonder). 2) It would lock you into an exclusive advantageous alliance with us for much faster tech advancement. And 3) it would radically change the current FREE-dominated dynamic of the game giving you a more realistic potential path to victory.

And on that note, we'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:
----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace
  • Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
  • This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Technology Plan
  • Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
  • Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
  • Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
  • The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.

Technology Balance

Team SABER
  • Military Tradition (1920)
  • Medicine (3000)
  • Scientific Method (3000)
  • Replaceable Parts (4200)
  • Atomic Theory (TOE)
  • Electronics (TOE)
  • Refining (4800)
  • Combustion (4800)
  • Flight (5400)

The Council
  • Nationalism (3600)
  • Industrialization (3600)
  • Electricity (4200)
  • Sanitation (2700)
  • Corporation (3000)
  • Steel (4200)
  • Motorized Transport (4200)
  • Mass Production (4200)
  • Amphibious War (3600)

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300

III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders
  • The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
  • Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.


IV. Defense Against All
  • If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
  • If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
  • For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
  • Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
  • As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
  • If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
  • Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.


END DRAFT
-------------------------

We hate to put pressure on you with such short notice – but we would REALLY like to know if you’re interested in the broad outlines of this before we play this turn. Of course the specific points can be negotiated in good faith if you’re interested in the basic concept… just let us know!

All the Best,
Your Friends,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Please comment/edit or even send this!
I expect to check back in around 8am PST (about 10 hours from this post) – so I can send it off then if no one has done it yet.

EDIT: I deleted article 5, "spoils of war." No need to get into that kind of detail at this point. Besides, Saber will likely want at least one of Babe's small islands... so I suggest we just leave that alone for now.
 
I think we should point out that we have not yet signed any industrial age deal with Free, just so that it is clear we are not going back on any agreement.
 
This is an excellent letter! :wow:

I agree to play that open with SABER and think this is a great progress. :thumbsup:

I would feel better if we knew for sure that SABER has a prebuild going (might as well be for Smith's or Magellan) before sending it - but at the bottom line I need to know till I'd like to play in ~10 hours from now...
So send it off!

There's no need to hurry though, I'm pretty sure we could stall the game for another day if we want. :smug:
If there will ever be a statistic on "hold game time" BABE will have a quite comfortable lead... :rolleyes:
 
We might also offer to (temporarily) help their cash position if they have trouble to do max science towards ToE. Only if prebuild timing allows / demands it.

Our own cash situation might force us to stall research after Industrialization but that might also allow us to start on RP rather than TC after we got Electricity... :hmm: :crazyeye:
 
I agree with a lot that was said here. We should make it clear that we don't have a signed agreement with FREE right now. And we can hold off another day on playing if we want - but we don't want to raise Free's suspicions. I don't foresee SABER going to FREE. Our story has the ring of truth and SABER would realize that FREE would get ToE and Hoover if they (SABER) allied with FREE. Besides, I doubt FREE would answer SABER any time soon anyway.
 
Looks like Paul already posted this in the Saber embassy, but here is Chamnix’s letter again for reference:
Spoiler :

Dear General_W:

It is difficult to promise much given the quick deadline and the lack of details in your letter, but we continue to be interested in working with you, and I will tell you what I can.

We can reach about 600 shields in a city in your proposed timeframe, and we are definitely interested in building the Theory of Evolution. Depending on when you can provide us with Industrialization, it may be quicker for us to build a factory and rush a coal plant than it is to use an existing prebuild, but we will work that out depending on your estimated time of completion of Industrialization.

We may not be able to provide Medicine at the same time as you provide Industrialization, and if you're not comfortable with that, then that's fine, and we will forget the factory/coal plant approach.

I hope that's enough information to enable you to make whatever decision must be made this turn.

Chamnix

This is wonderful news. Saber is being surprisingly open, AND they can get the 600 shields in the 10-11 turns.

I’d therefore like to send off this modified letter in the next 4 hours or so.
I agree we can continue to hold the save for even 24 more hours… but it’d be nice to move it sooner than that.

I’ve changed the opening part to reflect the letter we got from Saber, and further modified our alliance bailing part per Aigburth’s suggestion.
I think that gives us pretty much unanimous support among the councilors that have commented thus far… but I’d still like to give at least a few hours for comment before we commit such a drastic action.

Here’s version 2:
Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

Thank you so much for getting back to us. Again, we apologize for the large demands and lack of information. We deeply appreciate your honesty in the face of all that. In return, we’re going to be very open with you also.

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

Here’s the scoop on why we’ve had all the cloak and dagger recently…

Confidential Disclosure:
The Council anticipates the completion of Newton's University next turn (161). We also know that team FREE has an aggressive pre-build in place for the ToE. After completing this wonder, they will use it to advance to Electronics, and then use a Scientific Great Leader they drew earlier in the game to rush finish Hoover Dam. :wow:

Team FREE is becoming increasingly uncooperative, and The Council has decided we’d really like to thwart this massive leap forward. To do this, it is essential that team FREE be denied the ToE. We briefly considered giving up on Newton's University in favor of trying to beat FREE to the ToE, but this move alone is fraught with problems, as FREE has made it clear that they consider that to be “their” wonder. Making a change in allegiance at this stage only makes solid strategic sense for us if we can get a new ally, get Newton, AND deny the ToE to FREE.

Since we haven’t ever officially completed a new alliance agreement with FREE, we feel comfortable making this kind of a strategic jump without breaking our word. However, as you can imagine, FREE is going to be “less than impressed” and there will certainly be broad and probably severe repercussions to us shifting our allegiance. We're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE before they become a runaway train.

If we can't work out a deal with someone, we'll have to stick with our alliance with FREE and hope we can somehow overcome their Hoover advantage in the Modern Age.

This is where you (hopefully) come in!
Since you’ve indicated you can get a city to 600 shields in 10-11 turns, (we understand that it's probably a pre-build for Newton, but remember: if we can't work out a deal here, you're going to lose it anyway, unless you're completing it this turn), we are proposing a deal where you divert that pre-build towards beating FREE to the Theory of Evolution.

If you're open to it, this would do a few wonderful things for you. 1) It would save you shields you're likely to lose (or be forced to dump into a stinky wonder as FREE gobbles up the good ones in the IA). 2) It would lock you into an exclusive advantageous alliance with us for much faster tech advancement. And 3) it would radically change the current FREE-dominated dynamic of the game giving you a more realistic potential path to victory.

And on that note, we'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:
----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace
  • Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
  • This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Technology Plan
  • Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
  • Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
  • Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
  • The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.

Technology Balance

Team SABER
  • Military Tradition (1920)
  • Medicine (3000)
  • Scientific Method (3000)
  • Replaceable Parts (4200)
  • Atomic Theory (TOE)
  • Electronics (TOE)
  • Refining (4800)
  • Combustion (4800)
  • Flight (5400)

The Council
  • Nationalism (3600)
  • Industrialization (3600)
  • Electricity (4200)
  • Sanitation (2700)
  • Corporation (3000)
  • Steel (4200)
  • Motorized Transport (4200)
  • Mass Production (4200)
  • Amphibious War (3600)

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300

III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders
  • The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
  • Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.


IV. Defense Against All
  • If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
  • If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
  • For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
  • Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
  • As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
  • If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
  • Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.

-------------------------

We hate to put pressure on you with such short notice again – but we would REALLY like to know if you’re interested in the broad outlines of this before we play this turn. Of course the specific points can be negotiated in good faith if you’re interested in the basic concept… just let us know!

All the Best,
Your Friends,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

EDIT: SENT! To Saber gmail and Chamnix PM and Dutchfire gmail

Good to go?
 
The suspense is killing me so I sent this to SABER's gmail on my own initiative. Hope I don't lose my Council seat or get flogged by the General.

Dear SABER,

We expect to finish industrialization on turn 161 and could send it then. Please let us know soon if you'd be able to reach 600 shields within ten turns from now AND could research scientific method by then. If your research is slowed an estimate of the amount of gold needed to hurry your research would help us make decisions.

Disclaimer: I am sending this without first clearing it with the rest of the Council. :eek:

donsig
Team Council
 
Fine quick note, donsig. Although part of it was already answered (vaguely).

SCIAA sounds nice. SCIAT (treaty) would be great either. :hmm:

According to latin FIAT LUX (= "let there be light") maybe there is a "SCIAT" = "Let there be Knowledge" or just "be there knowledge"?
From latin scire = to know, 3 person singular conjunctive? :rolleyes:
 
Sciat: [it's been years since my degree, but]... my impression is that sciat would more properly be translated as 'Let it be known'. 3ps present [passive?] subjunctive.... No, no. That can't be right. the ending would be -tur. :hmm: Let him know, or, more fluently, Make it known. But again, we're falling into the passive, and that's not accurate here. I think I'm stuck, actually :lol:

I think it's good to go, General_W. However, just be sure to remove the END DRAFT tag towards the bottom of the letter ;)
 
Current Count:
In favor of current version: 4 (Peter, Donsig, Paul, General_W)
In favor (at least of last version): 3 (tomasjj, aigburth, cubsfan)
Opposed: 0 ( ? )

We've clearly got consensus on sending this basic letter.
But I'll go ahead and wait another hour for comment on this last version before I send it off.

Please speak up now if you've got any last minute changes!


@ Peter, Paul (& Mary?) – you're running into the same trouble I had on coming up with a catchy abbreviation for this deal. Let's just stick with SCIAA for now… if we come up with something really great, we can always change it later. I think reaching for psudo-Latin is a bit much ;)
 
Haha :lol:

I wasn't really advocating calling it sciat - I was just more trying to figure out what it would mean in english. It's not everyday that I get to put my degree to work :rolleyes:
 
ok! Good enough.
Off it goes!

How exciting!!
 
Man I had thought I'd already read the answer :( :mischief:

Finally some action... :p

At least Wotan thinks his peace offer gives us headaches :lol:
 
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