donsig
Low level intermediary
At least Wotan thinks his peace offer gives us headaches
We need to sell FREE on that, too. It would help cover our tracks.
POLL: Newton's or ToE? With FREE or SABER?
- Thread starter Paul#42
- Start date
We need to sell FREE on that, too. It would help cover our tracks.
, at least it will make things a little more interesting
I made up my mind now.
SABER seems self-conscious to complete the deed. I'd rather like to read it one more time...
So If nothing strange happens I'll just play as planned. We do get Newton's *fingers crossed* - General how about a newsletter on this?
If SABER get's ToE we'll have a prebuild for Hoover's ready. If not we'll just stick with FREE.
It's SABER's chance to convince us of their worthiness
All we do is provide Electricity and lean back and watch the battle
*grabs popcorn* 
SABER seems self-conscious to complete the deed. I'd rather like to read it one more time...
So If nothing strange happens I'll just play as planned. We do get Newton's *fingers crossed* - General how about a newsletter on this?
If SABER get's ToE we'll have a prebuild for Hoover's ready. If not we'll just stick with FREE.
It's SABER's chance to convince us of their worthiness
All we do is provide Electricity and lean back and watch the battle
*grabs popcorn* 
I don't follow the logic here. I thought we were about to sign on with Saber for a SCIAA, which would preclude us from signing MAAP3 with Free. According to my understanding, once we agree to SCIAA, there is no way to 'stick with Free'.
donsig
Low level intermediary
I think Our First Chairman has doubts that SABER wants to join us and / or can build ToE before FREE. Perhaps he's assuming we won't have any treaties signed in the near future and will be free to choose our ally for some time yet. If SABER reacts fast and gets SCIAA signed then, yes, there's no going back to FREE.
Yep, my thinking was just based on this turn which I will probably play with incomplete facts. 
What we got from SABER is so thin, it would usually make me stalling the game further.
Just to continue, I ruled out the option to build ToE ourselves because I will switch to Newton's this turn and there's no way back (unless someone robs us).
If negotiations in the next days result in chamnix saying: "No, we don't get the ToE prebuild in time" or "No, we can't / don't want to research SM in time" or even "No, you guys stink!" then we could still turn back to FREE and behave as if nothing had happened. Just a fall-back option.
If we switched to SABER and FREE manages to take ToE and Hoovers than we have chosen the wrong horse but should definetely try to make the best of it.
What we got from SABER is so thin, it would usually make me stalling the game further.
Just to continue, I ruled out the option to build ToE ourselves because I will switch to Newton's this turn and there's no way back (unless someone robs us).
Spoiler :
If negotiations in the next days result in chamnix saying: "No, we don't get the ToE prebuild in time" or "No, we can't / don't want to research SM in time" or even "No, you guys stink!"
then we could still turn back to FREE and behave as if nothing had happened. Just a fall-back option. If we switched to SABER and FREE manages to take ToE and Hoovers than we have chosen the wrong horse but should definetely try to make the best of it.
Yep, my thinking was just based on this turn which I will play with incomplete facts. What we got from SABER is so thin, it would usually make me stalling the game further. Just to continue, I ruled out the option to build ToE ourselves because I will switch to Newton's this turn and there's no way back (unless someone robs us).
If negotiations in the next days result in chamnix saying: "No, we don't get the ToE prebuild in time" or "No, we can't / don't want to research SM in time" or even "No, you guys stink!"
If we switched to SABER and FREE manages to take ToE and Hoovers than we have chosen the wrong horse but should definetely try to make the best of it.
Not sure I agree with the last part. FREE would run away with it with Hoover and ToE, so something would have to be done about them anyway... and together with SABER we would stand a better chance to whip them
Actually they would not necessarily run away if they are bound to MAAP III but I think that's excactly what they want to do by not signing it...Not sure I agree with the last part. FREE would run away with it with Hoover and ToE, so something would have to be done about them anyway... and together with SABER we would stand a better chance to whip them
They appear to see MAAP III as a brake / penalty for them (which it is) and try to get along without it. The more I think about it...
Thanks for the explanations. I follow the thinking now.
My Opinion:
We do Newton's.
Offer Saber SCIAA
If/When SCIAA is signed, and after the Industrialism swap with Free, we send them a note saying that we are still open to tech by tech swaps.
Then we do everything we can to help SABER pinch ToE
My Opinion:
We do Newton's.
Offer Saber SCIAA
If/When SCIAA is signed, and after the Industrialism swap with Free, we send them a note saying that we are still open to tech by tech swaps.
Then we do everything we can to help SABER pinch ToE
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Just so everyone knows... I'm chatting with Dutchfire right now, and it's going a bit rocky. Saber isn't sure this is a good deal for them.
I'll keep you posted...
I'll keep you posted...
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Ok- here's the basic scoop from Dutchfire: Saber isn't very impressed by our offer and thinks it's not a very good deal for them. Specifically, their gripes are that they're not really saving any beakers since we got Nationalism for free and are getting Electricity from FREE. (drat them, they pay too close of attention! )
They're also upset that they're being asked to bear all the burden of the ToE while we get all the attractive wonders.
They'd like to make a deal happen, but think we should build the ToE.
I pushed back pretty hard (with some light threats tossed in for good measure) and it sounds like it's possible that they might agree if we seriously upped our tech commitment.
Here's the whole thing:
Thoughts on what we should do?
Also, here's the SCIAA proposal we sent Saber for reference:
) They're also upset that they're being asked to bear all the burden of the ToE while we get all the attractive wonders.
They'd like to make a deal happen, but think we should build the ToE.
I pushed back pretty hard (with some light threats tossed in for good measure) and it sounds like it's possible that they might agree if we seriously upped our tech commitment.
Here's the whole thing:
Spoiler :
Thoughts on what we should do?
Also, here's the SCIAA proposal we sent Saber for reference:
Spoiler :
I'm really no good at figuring out tech balances, but it seems to me that if we pick up an extra 4000 beakers we may tip the fence-sitters on Saber, no?
Would it work out if we switched Replaceable Parts to our side, and called it even?
Would it work out if we switched Replaceable Parts to our side, and called it even?
They are totally right - why did we include our free techs in the deal? 
(yeah, I could have seen it too )
I suggest the following split:
Team SABER: Military Tradition, Medicine, Scientific Method, Refining, Replacable Parts, Mass Production, Amphibious Warfare
Team Council: Industrialization, The Corporation, Steel, Combustion, Flight, Motorized Transportation, Sanitation
Total beakers is 24720 for them and 27900 for us, a difference of 3180. In return they build the ToE and let us have Hoover's, as before.
This split also has the nice property that we won't have to wait at any point. We'll do Med-Indu, SciMeth-Corp, Ref-Steel, RepParts-Comb, MassProd-MotoTrans, Amphi-Flight and at some point also Sanit-MilTrad.
(yeah, I could have seen it too )I suggest the following split:
Team SABER: Military Tradition, Medicine, Scientific Method, Refining, Replacable Parts, Mass Production, Amphibious Warfare
Team Council: Industrialization, The Corporation, Steel, Combustion, Flight, Motorized Transportation, Sanitation
Total beakers is 24720 for them and 27900 for us, a difference of 3180. In return they build the ToE and let us have Hoover's, as before.
This split also has the nice property that we won't have to wait at any point. We'll do Med-Indu, SciMeth-Corp, Ref-Steel, RepParts-Comb, MassProd-MotoTrans, Amphi-Flight and at some point also Sanit-MilTrad.
One more thing - if they fail to build ToE, we will of course split the two techs, them doing AT and we do Electronics.
I should also note that if we want to change the beaker imbalance, the best way to do that is by swapping techs within the pairs. Right now we have on our side Steel which is more expensive than Refining and Comb > RepParts. I think it should stay the way it is though, we should accept that we can research a lot faster than them, having both Cope's and Newton's, and that we will outpace them in the MT anyway.
An apology would also be in order, we did try to blow them, even if it was inadvertently (which they probably wouldn't buy).
I should also note that if we want to change the beaker imbalance, the best way to do that is by swapping techs within the pairs. Right now we have on our side Steel which is more expensive than Refining and Comb > RepParts. I think it should stay the way it is though, we should accept that we can research a lot faster than them, having both Cope's and Newton's, and that we will outpace them in the MT anyway.
An apology would also be in order, we did try to blow them, even if it was inadvertently (which they probably wouldn't buy).
cubsfan6506
Got u
Nevermind..
Niklas' idea sounds good although refining is more expensive than steel not the other way around.
We could say the first proposal was a bit of a rush job (which is true) but maybe its best not to come up with excuses and just give a straight apology instead.
We could say the first proposal was a bit of a rush job (which is true) but maybe its best not to come up with excuses and just give a straight apology instead.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Perhaps instead of apologizing we could explain what negotiating is. We could also offer to let them split the techs and let us choose which half we want. We should build Newton's and then we can examine who can build ToE faster. Also, I agree we should include a provision for missing out on ToE (and Hoover) since we'll have serious competition.
We could also offer to let them split the techs and let us choose which half we want. We should build Newton's and then we can examine who can build ToE faster. Also, I agree we should include a provision for missing out on ToE (and Hoover) since we'll have serious competition.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
GREAT start Niklas 
@Donsig: good point. But I think we'll have a better chance of success if we play nice
I had a much friendlier chat with Dutchfire just now. Looks like we're coming closer together.
Looks like a big piece of potential leverage for us is Chamnix is estimating they'll need around 1,000 gold to rush the necessary infrastructure to make the ToE happen – and even then they think the best they can do is probably turn 173 (ie, 13 turns).
If we decide we're willing to offer them a truckload of gold to help them get it done, I think that might just tip the scales in our favor.
If making this deal is still worth it to us for that cost. (I personally think it certainly would be)
Here's a rough draft of what a counter-proposal to Saber might look like:
Thoughts on that?
One final thing I'd like to toss out there is that I think it is pretty reasonable and fair for us to contribute a truckload of gold in payment for Saber's work on the ToE.
Realistically, our alternatives are: A) give up Newton to stop FREE or B) Stick with FREE and let them continue to dramatically outpace us or C) Keep Newton and pay Saber a hefty fee to enable them to get ToE in time.
I'm opposed to B. So we just need to decide how much gold it's worth to us to be able to keep Newton.
The Treasury is currently doing around 80 beakers. I think that is coming from 40 base uncorrupted commerce. Assume that it will average 45 over the lifetime of the game (very conservative, since with sanitation, we'll be able to do 45 base uncorrupted commerce with just two more roaded tiles) – at 45 base commerce, at an average of 70% science, Newton will be worth an average of 31 beakers per turn. (45 * .7 = 31.5)
Bottom line: Paying 800 gold to keep Newton will take us about 26 turns to earn back in beakers.
But I think it's actually a little better than that, because in 26 turns we'll be nearing the Modern Age where beating other teams to key techs like Miniaturization (internet!) by even a turn or two could be totally pivotal.
So – that's how I came up with 800 gold being acceptable. But I'm totally looking forward to hearing what the better C3C players on our team have to say!
@Donsig:
good point. But I think we'll have a better chance of success if we play nice I had a much friendlier chat with Dutchfire just now. Looks like we're coming closer together.
Looks like a big piece of potential leverage for us is Chamnix is estimating they'll need around 1,000 gold to rush the necessary infrastructure to make the ToE happen – and even then they think the best they can do is probably turn 173 (ie, 13 turns).
If we decide we're willing to offer them a truckload of gold to help them get it done, I think that might just tip the scales in our favor.
If making this deal is still worth it to us for that cost. (I personally think it certainly would be)
Here's a rough draft of what a counter-proposal to Saber might look like:
Thoughts on that?
One final thing I'd like to toss out there is that I think it is pretty reasonable and fair for us to contribute a truckload of gold in payment for Saber's work on the ToE.
Realistically, our alternatives are: A) give up Newton to stop FREE or B) Stick with FREE and let them continue to dramatically outpace us or C) Keep Newton and pay Saber a hefty fee to enable them to get ToE in time.
I'm opposed to B. So we just need to decide how much gold it's worth to us to be able to keep Newton.
The Treasury is currently doing around 80 beakers. I think that is coming from 40 base uncorrupted commerce. Assume that it will average 45 over the lifetime of the game (very conservative, since with sanitation, we'll be able to do 45 base uncorrupted commerce with just two more roaded tiles) – at 45 base commerce, at an average of 70% science, Newton will be worth an average of 31 beakers per turn. (45 * .7 = 31.5)
Bottom line: Paying 800 gold to keep Newton will take us about 26 turns to earn back in beakers.
But I think it's actually a little better than that, because in 26 turns we'll be nearing the Modern Age where beating other teams to key techs like Miniaturization (internet!) by even a turn or two could be totally pivotal.
So – that's how I came up with 800 gold being acceptable. But I'm totally looking forward to hearing what the better C3C players on our team have to say!
Well, those 1000 gold should be offset by the 3000+ beakers, no? That said, I'm fine with contributing gold to them, but I think they would agree to 500 gold too, i.e. half. If not, let them do the haggling, we shouldn't do it for them.
But 13 turns, will they beat FREE with that? And with a 1000 gold investment into The Treasury, could we do it faster? If yes, maybe we should try to make a deal to make them give us gold instead, or?
But 13 turns, will they beat FREE with that? And with a 1000 gold investment into The Treasury, could we do it faster? If yes, maybe we should try to make a deal to make them give us gold instead, or?
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I'm good with offering 500 gold.
But the point about us building it faster is excellent – but politically more difficult since we'd have to explain to FREE why we're not transferring Medicine and Scientific Method to them much sooner.
Still – if one of our MM kings can work out how long it would take us to do it, it'd be a cool bargaining tool to offer to let Saber pay us the money while we do the ToE build.
But the point about us building it faster is excellent – but politically more difficult since we'd have to explain to FREE why we're not transferring Medicine and Scientific Method to them much sooner.
Still – if one of our MM kings can work out how long it would take us to do it, it'd be a cool bargaining tool to offer to let Saber pay us the money while we do the ToE build.
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