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[GS] Poll - Rail movement points

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by nzcamel, Apr 10, 2019.

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When and what movement points should rail give?

Poll closed Apr 24, 2019.
  1. 0.5, upgrading to 0.25 in the Information era.

    3.6%
  2. 0.5, upgrading to 0.25 in the Atomic era.

    10.7%
  3. Leave it as it is currently

    78.6%
  4. Other - Explain in comments please

    7.1%
  1. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Regarding the implementation of rail; I think that it shouldn't start at the 0.25 movement it currently does. Modern roads kick in only once you cross into the modern era; and they at 0.5 movement. It's crazy that rail out of the gate is faster than the fasted automobiles in the game.

    I think that rail should start at 0.5 giving it a small jump on roads; and only upgrade to 0.25 in the Information era. Sure, some bullet trains came about in the Atomic era; but not many.

    Thoughts?

    Spoiler :


    Rail.PNG

     
  2. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Warlord

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    I don't mind how it is. While maybe not technically "faster" the movement rate accounts for the increased efficiency of moving by rail.

    Besides, the game wants more incentives for you to make railroads.
     
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  3. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    The jump from 0.75 to 0.25 is OTT for increased efficiency imho... At that big picture level of Civ, 0.5 reflects it well.
     
  4. isau

    isau Warlord

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    I think rail makes sense for unit transport because even to this day it is used for transporting shipments of materials.

    The motorized roads at the start of the Modern era wouldn't be all that fast. And even in the Information era rail would still be used to transport a lot of supplies.
     
  5. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Warlord

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    The speed also implies bulk. Trains can move a lot more stuff at once than a modern car ot even a modern truck.
     
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  6. TomKQT

    TomKQT Chieftain

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    You need to invest quite a lot of micromanagement to railroads, while roads are kinda free. So I think railroads should give you some significant speed advantage right from the start.
    And this is not the case where I would compare it to the real world and started calculating the speed of cars and trains in different eras. Plus what others already said - a train can carry much more than a truck.
     
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  7. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    For one, rails cost something, in terms of iron, coal, and military engineer time; roads simply upgrade for free. So we do need rails to have a good competitive advantage that has some staying power- otherwise why spend so much time building out a rail network? It takes time to make an empire spanning network of rail, while road upgrades instantly.

    If you look at the US, which has perhaps the best freight network in the world, they even win on speed.
    If you're an American, UPS (for example) uses the freight rail for shipping so much that they started pushing heavily for railways to double stack containers on their traincars - because they were moving more volume faster than even the trains were capable of. A typical semi truck has a 53' trailer/inter-modal container and travels 60-70mph. A single freight train can have 100+ cars carrying two 53' containers each travelling at 60mph. And the train doesn't have to deal with rush hour traffic.

    And for the military units, there's just no way you can even afford to drive a column of tanks across the country when you could just load them on rails. (@Boris Gudenuf would probably understand that side more.)
     
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  8. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Regardless of "realism" you're specially building a unit to specifically lay them out using strategic resources to build. It needs to really be worth it. Even as it is I dont build them a lot. Nerf them and I'll build them even less.
     
  9. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    What I'm possibly taking away from this is that rail as implemented in VI was a waste of time.
    Traditionally you had roads; and later in the tech tree they could be upgraded to rail for more movement. VI's system of automatic upgrades a few times throughout the game was fine as is. They could have called modern roads "rail" (though sure, industrial fits better time wise) and that probably would have been the end of that.
     
  10. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Some people like bells and whistles to play with. I'll definitely build them if I'm playing Dom on a bigger sized map for troop movements. It's not as good as airlifting but doesn't require a district slot.
     
  11. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    Big problem with late game was/is that you had all your districts laid down already and the building game was basically done. Railroads (and canals and the other new stuff) were attempts to extend the building aspect of the game that most people really like further into the game. Problem is, rails are a pure movement feature, they don't actually do anything else for you. So, when you build them you likely don't really feel like you are achieving industrialization or something, which sort of makes them a very muted addition.

    If they had some economic benefit or application, then players could potentially have another round of planning and building to improve their cities to keep them engaged in an exciting way. (One could even utilize the trading post system!)
    As it is, i like the graphical change and I still try to build rails, but it lacks a real sense of achieving anything because they're only good for moving your troops around to go do an emergency or what have you. (I understand there's the niche case of international trade route benefits but that's not the most compelling thing most of the time.)
     
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  12. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Yeah, in past versions they've often added a production per tile. Though I get that a big part of VI has been getting rid of road spaghetti; and that would just encourage rail spaghetti.
     
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  13. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    The fact that there is only incremental speed increase for unit movement and no economic/social/cultural benefit at all means that there are still no railroads in Civ VI. There are roads with funny cross-hatching, but they do not act like railroads, so they are not railroads.

    Unit movement: a marching unit can average 15 - 20 miles a day for a long period, up to 30 miles a day for short 'bursts' which will end up, if continued for too long, with the men and the draft animals hauling the heavy weapons exhausted. A motorized unit in convoy, if it has ready supplies of fuel, a good road, and good traffic control (an often overlooked point) can average up to 200 miles a day - about a fourth of that if they are 'moving to contact' staying ready for battle (very few 'fast' exportations or movements in WWII actually exceeded an average of 50 miles a day in any circumstances).
    A railroad train in the 19th century (Industrial Era) averaged 100 miles a day even on primitive single-track lines, up to 600 miles a day on multi-track lines with electronic signaling and train control in the late 20th century (Atomic Era)

    To this day, the preferred method of moving tracked vehicles long distances over land is by rail: aside from the wear and tear on the tracks and vehicles, you haven't seen destruction until you've seen an asphalt road after a few hundred 25 - 60 ton tracked vehicles have ground over it (Disclosure: I was a tank driver Once Upon A Time, so this is not purely theoretical knowledge from historical studies!).

    To replicate the effect of the railroad and not just the purty graphics, Civ VI would have to have the following:
    1. City Radius no longer applies. The city can draw Amenity Resources and/or Food from any tile it is connected to by railroad.
    2. Unit movement by rail is, comparatively, 5 to 10 times faster than any other ground movement. BUT, realistically (if we can use that word in Civ VI at all), railroad movement cannot be used within ZOC of any enemy ground unit, and enemy units cannot use your railroads for railroad movement.
    3. Anything that has a 'radius of effect' extends dramatically further with railroads. Fresh oranges can be shipped from California to Chicago, Fresh Tea from west coast ports to New York City: 'radius' does not apply. The Factories of Pittsburgh or Detroit (or Essen, or Birmingham) can produce for anyone connected by railroad. People can (and did, and do) travel by rail 1000, 200, 3000 miles to visit Crater Lake or the Grand Canyon - or the Bolshoi Ballet, for that matter. This kind of 'people travel' for Amenities or Culure also, of course, extends to Air Travel, Aerodromes or Air Ports.
    4. Railroad connections multiply the effect of other types of travel and some Districts. A Commercial Hub, for instance, that is also connected by rail will dramatically increase its effect on commerce, because the sheer volume of trade increases by orders of magnitude (one wagon or truck = 2 to 50 tons; one train = 600 - 10,000 tons moving 3 to 10 times faster and further). A port/Harbor connected by rail basically extends its trade benefits to the end of the railroad connection.

    The Industrial Revolution was as much as Railroad Revolution as it was a Production Revolution, and from the effects also came Social, Cultural, and even Organizational Revolutions (all modern armies and most corporations resemble in basic respects the organization of the first large railroads: that's not accidental)
    Until Civ VI at least attempts to model some of those effects, it has no railroads, just a road with funny graphics.
     
  14. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Boris, just thinking of simple stuff they could do to reflect your post. Do you think adding housing to cities connected to the capital by rail might help represent better food variety? Then maybe any city with luxuries connected to the capital might cover 6 cities rather than 4 to represent better dissemination of goods. Of course increasing trade value for trade units traveling on rail is a bit of a no brainer but I'd worry about it taking away from the new sea trade benefits.
     
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  15. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    The new sea benefit is very limited: only gold on international routes. Railroads already let you get that same benefit over land (of course its much easier and cheaper to use sea.)
    If they extended this trade bonus to all food/prod/gold from int'l and domestic trade, then railroads could come in and do major things for everyone's inland cities. (An easy balance point would be something like having sea route efficiency start at 2 as it is now, just like rails, but improving the efficiency of sea routes to 3 (and the bonus cap) at some tech/civic. After all, containerization and modern seaports have literally multiplied the efficacy of maritime trade.)
    Settling early coastal empires would provide huge benefits down the coast, helping them out a lot too.

    But then at the very least any city would see real economic benefits for being connected by rails - essentially doubling the value of any trade routes from or to there. It's very much a drop-in solution purely using number tweaks.
     
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  16. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Valid point. If I'm going to slam the game, I should have some in-game corrections for what I'm slamming.
    Here goes:
    1. Food is Bulk Trade, so no Food from any Trade Route except Sea and Railroad - and the (presumably) post-Railroad multi-lane Interstate/Autobahn-type highways and tractor-trailer trucks of the Atomic and later Eras.
    2. Railroads have a 'Cree-Like' extension: the 'city radius' extends an extra 2 - 3 tiles along the railroad AND those tiles can be worked, even if they are 4 or more away from your city center.
    3. Railroad-based Trade Routes (and Sea Trade Routes to a lesser extent before the Industrial Era/steam ships) provide Gold, Production, Culture, and Food based on the District/City output of those things in all the cities connected by railroad in your Empire. And by Diplomatic/Commercial Treaty (German Railroad Union in the Industrial Era, for instance) those benefits can include foreign Civs/City States. Thus, we approach the Historical reality that a high-production city connected by railroad delivered its goods to all points on the railroad net, people could travel for pleasure (taking advantage of both Amenity and Culture, in game terms) and food could be shipped from anywhere it was grown/produced to whatever city needed it.
    4. Ground Combat/Civilian Units' movement by railroad is between Stations. That is, a unit starting in a city or district with a railroad instantly can move to any other District/City Center connected by railroad. To 'load up' or 'unload' from the railroad at any other point takes a Movement Point. This "rail movement' cannot be traced through a Pillaged railroad tile, an enemy Zone of Control or enemy combat unit. Aircraft can bomb a railroad tile, but the most damage they can do is to 'Pillage' the railroad, and the pillage is automatically repaired the following turn (railroads on average were blocked by bombing the tracks for all of 24 hours: the German, Soviet, and Allied military could all repair the tracks that fast - until we get actual 'bridges' in Civ VI as possible targets, that's the best your aircraft can do without Nukes). Ground units can pillage the railroad tile just as if it were any other Improvement. That Pillaging, like 'normal' pillaging, needs a Charge to remove.

    That last point is probably more complex than they would want to go in pillage/damage/repair of railroads, but the other points I think would approach the real importance of railroads in the Industrial Era and later in the game.
     
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  17. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I’m not sure railways need much more to be “good”.

    The extra movement is great. I think all that’s really missing is (1) Military Engineers should be able to lay roads like they do rails (ie no charge) - among other things, that would encourage earlier infrastructure development, and (2) railways need to provide some sort of boost - eg flat bonus production to connected cities etc.

    I’m not against having railways buff internal trade routes, but I’d be a little worried about overall game balance especially given the game generally pushes you towards international routes as the game goes on.
     
  18. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    A flat production bonus is the easy way to go, but because railroads were linked with general Industrial Development, I'd think some bonus that is linked to the Industrial (Production) and other productive capabilities of the cities (Food, Culture, Amenities) would better reflect the railroads' influence, and encourage development - and specialization - of your cities. After all, it was after the railroad connections were made that Pittsburgh, Essen, Manchester, and other 'major' industrial centers developed - Pittsburgh, for instance, was shipping iron ore from Minnesota as the iron ore in Pennsylvania ran out late in the 19th century - that would have been impossible without the railroad.

    Railroads could both enhance and replace International routes in importance. If your Civilization is big enough (historically, USA, Russia, India) the railroad could make internal long-distance routes almost as profitable and useful (see above paragraph) as the international trade. If you already had extensive international trade (England, parts of France) then the first railroads would run to the ports, so all that international goods & services could be spread across the country.
    Properly implemented, railroads would give you a possible alternative to the lucrative international trade, and enhance what international trade you had already established.

    And yes, railroads could be a balance problem: historically, those without efficient and extensive railroad nets became prey for those that had them: Prussia versus France in 1870, Germany versus Russia in 1914 - 17, The USA versus the CSA in 1861-65. Railroads allowed great, if vulnerable, strategic mobility and vastly enhanced the production/industrial output, both of which could imbalance the military equation enormously. The answer, of course, is that when it's time to railroad, you'd better railroad unless you have something else going for you: a mass of protective mountains like Switzerland (in game Inca) or a nicely isolated location with 'protective' oceans like Australia, USA, or Japan.
    It's not unlike the current in-game Balance Problem: when it's time to get Knights, you'd better get Knights, or have a really good alternative: like a nicely isolated location like Switzerland (in-game Inca), Japan, USA, etc.
     
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  19. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    As long as that flat bonus isn't upped & upped by rail covering the landscape as it is with rail adding a production per tile it's laid upon...
     
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  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Completely agree. Any railroad bonus should be linked to the real value/productivity of the tiles its connecting. That means a tile not being worked would give, essentially, 0 additional from the railroad - running the railroads across the uninhabited central plains of the USA and Canada made those lands potentially valuable, but there wasn't anything coming out of them originally.

    In fact, the major bonuses should come from connecting cities and districts, allowing the 'bonuses' from those to extend further - a neat extension of the current 'radius' of Industrial Zones and such, but extending it to Food production as well as Culture, Gold or Production. In fact, once railroads start connecting, the 'food' equation would be based on the combined total of all the cities connected instead of each individual city - giving the gamer/AI the chance to make a specialized Food Production city in addition to cultural, gold, or production-focused cities.
     

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