POLL: Should players be able to raze their own cities?

Should players be able to raze their own cities (except for their capital)?

  • Yes

    Votes: 42 51.2%
  • No

    Votes: 40 48.8%

  • Total voters
    82

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Do you think this feature should be added?

This probably won't be added right away if the vote is yes, but if people want it, I might add it.
 
Yes, No, Sort of. Razing your own cities is kind of weird. I would prefer it if you could pack your things up and return to a "settler" state again. Possibly a colonist or whatever depending on how many buildings there are in your city or whatever your level of tech is. It just doesn't seem all to common or so to burn your own cities to the ground and all and everything in them. Better then to pack all your things up and move along.

In that regard I would be more inclined to be able to burn down enemy capitals, city-states etc. Places not-yours being put to the torch makes more sense in that regard. To get your sack on ...

Perhaps it can be done as a process; "resettling" or something. You run it for a set amount of turns to dismantle the settlement corresponding to however long it would take to make a settler and perhaps a turn or so per structure if those can be brought along.


(edit) It would or could open up weird possibilities if you can raze your own cities. Will it spawn rebels? Could you abuse this then to burn (or raze) away unwanted pops to keep you under the cap or fix your happiness (even tho they would be very unhappy at the time of burning)? Could you use it to create barbarian units to farm them for yields (Orders) etc.

Will it cause unhappiness in the rest of the empire if you do this? I assume if you actually burned things to the ground and killed everything there then yes there might be somewhat of empire unhappiness involved. But if you resettle them perhaps less so.
 
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It would or could open up weird possibilities if you can raze your own cities. Will it spawn rebels? Could you abuse this then to burn (or raze) away unwanted pops to keep you under the cap or fix your happiness (even tho they would be very unhappy at the time of burning)? Could you use it to create barbarian units to farm etc.

As the code is currently, no rebels, yes Barbarians, yes burn away unwanted pop.

Now that you phrase it that way, it does seem abusable...
 
I don't see myself razing my own cities anytime soon but I guess it doesn't hurt to have the option. Maybe it could be part of the events system in which razing your own city is a choice to counter a plague or something like that.

A "resettling" process could be something allowing the player to move population from one city to another in a similar way to this mod: https://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/CivV/Units/Population.html
 
Perhaps it can be done as a process; "resettling" or something. You run it for a set amount of turns to dismantle the settlement corresponding to however long it would take to make a settler and perhaps a turn or so per structure if those can be brought along.

I was thinking something along this line as well.

When the city is destroyed, the civ gains the highest settler unit unlocked. Perhaps even one per 5 population taken?

This might be going too far, but maybe give the Mongols a bonus to this to reflect their nomadic culture? Perhaps they gain 2 horse units as well, maybe an extra settler?
 
I think the idea is neat, but I'm not sure if I'd really like to see it as a universal thing. Maybe as a possible trait or policy modifier For both simply razing and the "resettling". Resettling also sounds abusable if each new "settle" counted as a different city- you could potentially resettle on the same tile a dozen tiles to spam certain yields, for example.

If we want to change razing, my bigger preference would be to integrate razing capitals (both major and minor) into base VP instead.
 
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I feel like the option of "resettline" should be present. It would open interesting possibilities for nomadic civs, especially. That said, I'm worried about bonuses based on settling (I'm talking Carthage's UA, the Imperium policy and other such things) : can we realistically make it so that they don't trigger each time we resettle ?
 
Do you think this feature should be added?
I voted yes, because it makes sense. Like you expect the city to be captured, so you burn it, so it's worse. Besides, why shouldn't you be able to do that? What's really stopping you? Nero did it ;)

I feel like the option of "resettline" should be present. It would open interesting possibilities for nomadic civs, especially. That said, I'm worried about bonuses based on settling (I'm talking Carthage's UA, the Imperium policy and other such things) : can we realistically make it so that they don't trigger each time we resettle ?
Yeah, if we go with resettling, then this is a must IMHO.
 
I voted for the proposal, but would prefer it going the resettlement way, pure razing is not realistic IMHO.

Regards
XSamatan
 
I voted no cuz I expect AI will be much worse than human at identifying circumstance when it is advantageous to remove a city like this. If AI can handle it well then I'd change to yes vote.

I do like the resettlement idea on a thematic level more than razing, didn't settlers work this way in an earlier version of civ?

I always play 43-civ games with option to raze capitals and city states, not sure if it works as well in smaller games but should be default state for 43-civ.
 
Razing your own cities or forcibly resettling implies your soldiers using force/killing your civilians.

IMO this should come with a baseline "We remember what you did" type happiness penalty that sticks for several generations. I'd also have that penalty scale with eras, and this effect multiplied/divided by ideologies.

Freedom gets penalties for both resettling and razing. Nationwide long, temporary happiness penalty. Freedom civs spawn partisans sporadically nationwide during the razing/relocating, and maybe for a few turns after PLUS temporary combat maluses for your troops "You used us against our countrymen!" The settlers made from relocating have penalty promotions that slow them down and the cities that they settle have a small permanent "We remember what you did" happiness penalty.

Order is baseline for resettling and a penalty for razing. Nationwide short, temporary happiness penalty (long for raze short for relocate?). Order civs spawn partisans at the city being razed/relocated. The settlers made from relocating have penalty promotions that slow them down and the cities that they settle have a small permanent "We remember what you did" happiness penalty.

Autocracy has baseline, possibly muted penalties for both. No nationwide happiness penalty. Only spawns partisans at cities that are being razed. The settlers made from relocating have penalty promotions that slow them down and the cities that they settle have a long temporary "We remember what you did" happiness penalty.

Just block razing/relocating for damaged cites to prevent cheese gameplay
 
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Even resettling opens up abuse against players trying to conquer cities.

In a single player game i never see players "can't keep their hand out of the cookie jar" as a valid reason for changing, nerfing or not adding something. If a player wants to 'cheat' (in someone elses eyes) to enjoy the game then it is their game and they should enjoy it how they please.

If people play multiplayer you can decide any rules you like.


I voted no cuz I expect AI will be much worse than human at identifying circumstance when it is advantageous to remove a city like this. If AI can handle it well then I'd change to yes vote.

Extremely valid reason and point. I suspect the option would need to be turned off for the AI as it is doubtful it really needs it anyway.


(edit) It would or could open up weird possibilities if you can raze your own cities. Will it spawn rebels? Could you abuse this then to burn (or raze) away unwanted pops to keep you under the cap or fix your happiness (even tho they would be very unhappy at the time of burning)? Could you use it to create barbarian units to farm them for yields (Orders) etc.
As we can raise and stop raising enemy cities to increase happiness, not sure how it is different to 'burn away' unhappiness in your own cities. I would find this more realistic than having a tick box for not being allowed to grow. If there was more opportunity cost involved it would balance out any 'abuse'.

Previously (in the civ series if not civ 5, can't remember exactly) raising cities used to destroy buildings at the same time which seems like a good trade off and seems much more reasonable...Population will not be happy about being 'forcibly displaced' and are like to riot and sack the city. If you burn it to the ground anyway then who cares but if your just getting rid of some 'undesirables' then you have to risk damage to the city while they are removed.

You can add x number of turns of resistance on too while the city settles back down.

As for using it to farm barbarian units. Not sure of the exact timer but rebels spawn every x number of turns when raising a city so you have to burn a lot of population to gain some meagre resources and if this was really worth it why aren't people 'abusing' it now when they burn enemy cities they captured?


Considering we can already raise cities, just not our own i don't see a great difference apart from it takes away another advantage to being a warmonger as being a warmonger you can burn cities to control happiness but as a none warmonger you can't.
 
I guess it sort of goes against the principle game idea of building a civilization. Going by how much other civs hate you for razing cities, how much would your own people hate you???
I voted 'No'. You put your people in this place, so go and care for them, no matter what.
 
I vote no.

I can see this being part of the Order Resettlement policy. Even so, I can’t imagine why I would care to use it 99% of the time. So I don’t see much point or value. There are 100 other features I would rather have time and effort spent on.
 
I think as a late game option, yes. early would be too strong but I think being able to burn down cities that you decided to annex should be possible.
 
As we can raise and stop raising enemy cities to increase happiness, not sure how it is different to 'burn away' unhappiness in your own cities. I would find this more realistic than having a tick box for not being allowed to grow. If there was more opportunity cost involved it would balance out any 'abuse'.

Previously (in the civ series if not civ 5, can't remember exactly) raising cities used to destroy buildings at the same time which seems like a good trade off and seems much more reasonable...Population will not be happy about being 'forcibly displaced' and are like to riot and sack the city. If you burn it to the ground anyway then who cares but if your just getting rid of some 'undesirables' then you have to risk damage to the city while they are removed.

You can add x number of turns of resistance on too while the city settles back down.

As for using it to farm barbarian units. Not sure of the exact timer but rebels spawn every x number of turns when raising a city so you have to burn a lot of population to gain some meagre resources and if this was really worth it why aren't people 'abusing' it now when they burn enemy cities they captured?


Considering we can already raise cities, just not our own i don't see a great difference apart from it takes away another advantage to being a warmonger as being a warmonger you can burn cities to control happiness but as a none warmonger you can't.

I am not saying it's a perfect solution or anything. I have not even voted for (or against) this, yet. But it was more of "I would rather have this then that"; as in I would rather have resettling then being able to raze my own cities. As you note it's a bit weird that we can raze a conquered enemy city at any time; even ages after you captured it. But you can't ever do it to your own, to city-states and to enemy capitals (Holy cities are supposed to be off limits, don't know if they fixed the thing where you could remove the holy status and then raze it anyway). I don't really see it as the same as stopping population growth by ticking the box.

At some stage of the mod you couldn't stop the razing once it started. It was a bug I think? But in some regard in this context it might have made sense. You either burn it now or keep it and then the burn button shouldn't be there anymore.

Normally when you get unhappy for one reason or another you have to build something, reshuffle specialists or get some kind of luxury (which may or may not help). Building something takes many turns; depending on game speed. Shuffling and getting a luxury could be instant. But unhappiness is normally a multi-turn issue you have to deal with. Here you could basically then decide that "oh you are unhappy .. time to die!" and burn off the excess pop at a rate of one per turn; so you probably don't have to run it more then a turn or two. Then everyone is super happy (or at least neutral) again. It would be the fastest way probably to fix unhappiness without much consequence. Which is a bit weird.

I seem to recall previous versions of the game where you could basically get rid of a city by starving it down and then building a settler and you would remove the city. Don't recall which version it was now since it was quite some time ago. I don't think I'm imaging that one.

There is also the issue if you had "resettling" how long it would take etc. How long does it take to dismantle your city. To plan it and to execute it. I would think it would take more then a turn considering how long it takes to build just a single building etc. So I don't see it as a quick fix happiness issue solver in that regard.

As for barbarian farming; raze to spawn them, when you get low pop you stop burning, let the regrow and burn again. Will it be worthwhile? Probably not really but it might be something to do with undesirable cities you want to eventually get rid off. You normally won't get XP from barbs after lv2 (or 45 xp) but you still get yields from them if you kill them (Orders, Authority, certain wonders etc). It's not a great amount but it adds up. Sort of like farming enemies in war but more controllable. But it's a playstyle thing in some regard. I am not much for keeping enemy cities if I don't have to. They usually get burned. During the wars down to like size 1 to keep the land and a healing zone and then when the war is done you burn them all and resettle the land.

As for this being some kind of exploitable scorched earth policy where you raze cities that are in the risk of falling to the enemies. I am not sure how viable that would be. It might in that regard depend on how long the process would take to complete. It's not like you could run the process X-1 turns and then just keep it in the one turn away from completing state like you could with a say a building (people that invest several turns into say walls but then don't complete it to save the maintenance until they need the defence ...).
 
A resettling process is modmod territory - but in terms of destroying your own cities, it seems more people are against it than for it. Alright then.
 
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