Poll: Southeast Asia and the Fundamental Unfairness of It All

[steveg700]

I referred to an argument , I didnt attribute it to someone specifically.

 

[Jkchart]

Truthfully I'll take all of them.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Distinct because Vietnam has chiefly been influenced by China, whereas most of Southeast Asia (including Khmer and Indonesia) has been mostly influenced by India.


If this is directed at me, I certainly never made such an argument. I think the "TSL" arguments or the arguments that "another civ exists nearby" are extremely weak.

Vietic is a Mono-Khmer language, so we wouldn't really be increasing linguistic diversity by adding it on top of Khmer (really, the most diverse thing we could add linguistically is Siam, but with so much cultural/geographic overlap with Khmer I think it's unlikely). Burmese is a Sino-Tibetan language, and culturally I would argue they take far more from Tibet than they do from India. Which is why I really like the idea of Burma serving as a Tibet expy, vicariously repping a highly requested civ as well as itself, whereas Vietnam would largely be for its own sake (with perhaps some token Champa reference).

So, personally, I think the conflation of Vietnam as unique on the Indochine axis isn't a particularly compelling reason for inclusion, since Burma is on par and was generally a more influential regional power over the milennia. There are other reasons that could justify Vietnam over Burma. Larger modern influence. Not blacklisted on global trade lists. More coastal, which might incorporate Champa and give them some spreading space in the Philippines. But culture is not especially high on my list of things in favor of Vietnam, given that it's not standing head and shoulders over its competitors in that department.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Even if the chances of it happening are unlikely, I voted for all of them to be full civs since I think they'd all be pretty cool.

Burma is such an incredible powerhouse in so many areas and Bayinnaung would be a very cool leader, especially in his armor!

I'd welcome the return of Siam, especially if it embodies the Rattanakosin Kingdom that kept its independence from Europe. Rama V would be an interesting leader.

Vietnam is unique for being more in the Sinosphere rather than the Indosphere. It has several leaders like Le Loi and Trac Trung that would align very well with its rebellious history.

While it wasn't mentioned in this list (I'm guessing that these selections are more about continental Southeast Asia rather than all of Southeast Asia), I'd definitely be in favor of a Philippine civ to be added as well.

 

[Patine]

Vietic is a Mono-Khmer language, so we wouldn't really be increasing linguistic diversity by adding it on top of Khmer (really, the most diverse thing we could add linguistically is Siam, but with so much cultural/geographic overlap with Khmer I think it's unlikely). Burmese is a Sino-Tibetan language, and culturally I would argue they take far more from Tibet than they do from India. Which is why I really like the idea of Burma serving as a Tibet expy, vicariously repping a highly requested civ as well as itself, whereas Vietnam would largely be for its own sake (with perhaps some token Champa reference).

So, personally, I think the conflation of Vietnam as unique on the Indochine axis isn't a particularly compelling reason for inclusion, since Burma is on par and was generally a more influential regional power over the milennia. There are other reasons that could justify Vietnam over Burma. Larger modern influence. Not blacklisted on global trade lists. More coastal, which might incorporate Champa and give them some spreading space in the Philippines. But culture is not especially high on my list of things in favor of Vietnam, given that it's not standing head and shoulders over its competitors in that department.

You really don't know that much about Southeast Asia, do you? Not nearly as much as you think you do. And I see you, like so many other posters on these threads, seem to believe the Philippines are only worthy to be a group of islands for someone else to expand into, not worthy to have a possible endemic civ(s) of their own.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

You really don't know that much about Southeast Asia, do you? Not nearly as much as you think you do. And I see you, like so many other posters on these threads, seem to believe the Philippines are only worthy to be a group of islands for someone else to expand into, not worthy to have a possible endemic civ(s) of their own.

I don't think that's necessarily the intention here. Its quite possible that this thread is focused more on the very closely grouped main mainland empires and not really on the island ones like the Indonesian and Philippine nations which have a bit more breathing room.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I don't think that's necessarily the intention here. Its quite possible that this thread is focused more on the very closely grouped main mainland empires and not really on the island ones like the Indonesian and Philippine nations which have a bit more breathing room.

I would not mind a Philippine civ, although I do believe it would be more difficult to make a strong, resonant design than other civs in the region. But give any region enough slots on the roster and I think Philippines are aight.

This thread is indeed focused on mainland SE Asia. Although even if it weren't, I would not have presumed that the Philippines were as high on the list as Burma, Vietnam, and Siam. As far as I can tell, the expansions in VI are loathe to stray away from clearly defined imperial powers (with the Maori being the biggest deviation) and until they deliberately open up design space to allow for smaller/shorter polities I just don't see the Philippines as ever having been "imperial" enough to beat out civs that don't have to argue that point.

Even though I personally think Vietnam would be stretching away from "empires," it more comfortably fits the mold than the Philippines. And since the two are so close geographically I would see the Philippines to be space for Vietnam to expand to on TSL maps rather than vice versa. This is, again, all theorizing based on how the game has been designed thus far.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And I see you, like so many other posters on these threads, seem to believe the Philippines are only worthy to be a group of islands for someone else to expand into, not worthy to have a possible endemic civ(s) of their own.

Unfortunately for the Philippines, Manila happens to be on the city-list for Spain already. This might reflect the fact that they were named after Phillip II himself and a proper Civ might not even be on the devs minds.
Of course Spain is the only Civ in the game to get a city removed from their list (Granada became a city-state). I don't know if they would be willing to give up another one, but I guess it could still happen.
Either way I do agree that Vietnam, Burma, and Siam are probably the most viable options for appearing, not that I wouldn't like the Philippines, but I think we will only get one more from the area.

 

[Patine]

Unfortunately for the Philippines, Manila happens to be on the city-list for Spain already. This might reflect the fact that they were named after Phillip II himself and a proper Civ might not even be on the devs minds.
Of course Spain is the only Civ in the game to get a city removed from their list (Granada became a city-state). I don't know if they would be willing to give up another one, but I guess it could still happen.
Either way I do agree that Vietnam, Burma, and Siam are probably the most viable options for appearing, not that I wouldn't like the Philippines, but I think we will only get one more from the area.

In the city I live in, there is a VERY large Filipino-Canadian community resident (in fact, several franchises of Jollybee, a Filipino-owned fast food chain, that is mostly only found in the Philippines, opened up here). And I will tell you, Filipinos are NOT Spaniards, or even Hispanics, and Manila should NOT be a Spanish city. Period! The fact that it is shows sloppiness and laziness by the developers - at best...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Back on the topic of unique infrastructure for Vietnam I thought of an interesting take on the Water Puppet Theater.
It is an improvement that can only be built on a flooded river tile. After built it yields culture and an amenity from entertainment. It gains culture every time the river floods, in addition to any other fertility yields, after it is built.

 

[679x]

Back on the topic of unique infrastructure for Vietnam I thought of an interesting take on the Water Puppet Theater.
It is an improvement that can only be built on a flooded river tile. After built it yields culture and an amenity from entertainment. It gains culture every time the river floods, in addition to any other fertility yields, after it is built.

That's a great idea! Not only does it sound fun, but it naturally scales as the game progresses! And as its culture increases, its tourism output would naturally increase as well (with Flight).
Though Scotland and Canada both have a unique improvement that provides culture and an amenity, but can only have one of them per city, the restriction to only being able to build Water Puppet Theatres on floodplains could help balance out the fact that you can have multiple per city and thus get multiple bonus amenities in those cities. Man, I hope we see a Vietnam civ.