Poll: What is the Best Unique Unit?
- Thread starter Tephros
- Start date
Crime Doesn't Pay
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2009
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- 279
I love the musketeers as well. My main problem with them is that they seem to get outdated quickly.
I often play as Napoleon or Louis. Historically speaking did Napoleon have musketeers?
azzaman333
meh
Unless you hvae gems in your capital, you're taking a massive risk beelining praets to get their full effect. Beelining War Chariots or Immortals is getting you 1-2 key worker techs, so even if you don't have horses, you're no worse off. 0Quechas? You get them from turn 1.
Praets leave you with just Mining, Bronze, Iron and Fishing, and even then you'll still probably face Axes.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Axes are no problem with Praets. However, I see your point about the War Chariots and Immortals and worker techs. A very valid point. In fact, I rather enjoy War Chariots and just won a game with Rameses II.
But even though you get Quechas from turn 1, on larger maps or larger land masses or a Pangaea, Quechas won't last long enough to be my unit of choice.
Also, I usually don't beeline for Praets. I pick up BW first, then a few worker techs, then go straight for Iron working. Most leaders, you'll want to grab BW early, anyway. And since Rome starts with Mining, it isn't that big of a sacrifice.
But even though you get Quechas from turn 1, on larger maps or larger land masses or a Pangaea, Quechas won't last long enough to be my unit of choice.
Also, I usually don't beeline for Praets. I pick up BW first, then a few worker techs, then go straight for Iron working. Most leaders, you'll want to grab BW early, anyway. And since Rome starts with Mining, it isn't that big of a sacrifice.
dagriggstar
King
I haven't played alot of BtS but I know which UU's I like...
Hwacha
Got my vote, even if I don't often play as Korea. As someone said ealier - axemen with collateral.
Immortal
Great as rush unit if you can grab horses as well.
Skirmisher
I quite like playing as the Malinese actually. Don't under-estimate Skirmishers, excellent defence but you can rush with them as well. For me, better than Quechuas cos they last longer and you can have them at what like turn 14 or something ?. They last longer, but the main issue is lack of city raider promotions. Highly versatile and you can use them to defend (by themselves) til maceman (or elephants but the probability of getting those are fair low)...
Janissary
Fair obvious strategy to use here...I remember one specific game, may have lost about 10 or so but killed 70+ knights, 30+ war elephants, etc. etc. Also, by this stage of the game, you probably have the economy to have a large empire (unlike with earlier UU's, you can only go so far...)
Gallec Warrior
Doesn't a Dunn give you guerilla 1 anyway ? Point ?
Hwacha
Got my vote, even if I don't often play as Korea. As someone said ealier - axemen with collateral.
Immortal
Great as rush unit if you can grab horses as well.
Skirmisher
I quite like playing as the Malinese actually. Don't under-estimate Skirmishers, excellent defence but you can rush with them as well. For me, better than Quechuas cos they last longer and you can have them at what like turn 14 or something ?. They last longer, but the main issue is lack of city raider promotions. Highly versatile and you can use them to defend (by themselves) til maceman (or elephants but the probability of getting those are fair low)...
Janissary
Fair obvious strategy to use here...I remember one specific game, may have lost about 10 or so but killed 70+ knights, 30+ war elephants, etc. etc. Also, by this stage of the game, you probably have the economy to have a large empire (unlike with earlier UU's, you can only go so far...)
Gallec Warrior
Doesn't a Dunn give you guerilla 1 anyway ? Point ?
azzaman333
meh
Axes are still a problem for Praets, especially since the patch/expansion (cant remember which) that taught the AI to also use Axes as well as Archers for city defense.
Quechas don't need to last combat wise if theyve done their job and taken a couple of capitals.
You can win faster, and safer, by attacking earlier with WCs/Immortals/Quechas.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Well promoted defensive Axe: 5 + 75%(innate melee / shock bonus) + 10% combat I + 25% fortify bonus + 25% hills bonus (give 'em an edge) = 11.75
CR I Praet: 8 + 20% = 9.6.
WORST case scenario = 11.75 vs. 9.6 = lose 1 Praetorian but reduce that axe's health. The next Praet will kill him. Not bad.
Your right about Quechas doing their job if they can grab a couple capitals, but the Praets will have done their job if you conquer an entire huge continent and perhaps even invade another tech backwards continent with Praets.
If you're playing maps other than smaller ones or ones with multiple ocean separated land masses, you won't be winning anything but a few close-to-home wars with the other units.
Bottom line: play style and custom options decides the more efficient UU.
MonRiverMonarch
Oar Master
I was one of the two who voted for Conquistador, only because I need mounted units to make up for my lack of warmongering skills. Anytime someone declares on me, the border is usually being guarded by a single inexperienced warrior. I'm a builder, give me a speedy worker any day
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Your border city only has 1 warrior? Who's guarding your center cities? You should always guard your border cities more vociforously than your core cities.
I don't know too much about non-default sizes and speeds so my attempt at a rebuttal might be a bit feeble... I'll try anyway (please tell me if I'm utterly wrong).
1. the way I see it, you usually have close enough neighbours to Quechua Rush or enough unclaimed land nearby that the Quechua is a fantastic anti-barbarian unit that saves a lot of headaches on higher levels. If neither applies, you probably started isolated in which case most early UUs won't do much.
Even then the Quechua is a less total miss than others - cheap garrison units and allowing one to mass upgrade for free promotions. You can also have a few cheap Quechuas support your regular army - cheap garrisons mostly but sometimes they are the most hammer-efficient attackers (sac 1 Quechua, win with a sword instead of gambling on the sword winning straight away)
2. True. However, metals can be disconnected and the AIs tend to build too few spearmen anyway. Because of your movement speed, you can pick a victim who has no unpillagable metals. Last not least, you can wear down spearmen or switch to axes in extreme cases.
3. Praetorians vary a lot in usefulness from my experience. Sometimes they'll allow waging war with few losses straight form the start and steamroll the whole continent. At others, the window for a rush has closed and they'll require siege support.
Immortals and War Chariots pretty much guarantee the opportunity for a crippling rush.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Really? Immortals have fallen off the useful list extremely early on for me in Persian games. War Chariots lasted a little longer, but the same occurred (just finished a Rameses II game). However, I've had games where I took over not only my continent, but a SECOND continent after getting Astronomy with PRAETORIANS! Their usefulness far outlasts any other UU that I've encountered.
As for
I haven't made it to Monarch difficulty yet, so a Quecha rush is about as useful as a normal warrior rush. Again, their usefulness wanes very quickly on LARGE landmasses
But, once I'm hitting the upper-middle difficulties like monarch/emperor, I imagine that Quechas are an unstoppably amazing UU. I mean, since I almost always warrior rush (unless the nearest enemy is far enough away), I would hate to have to give that up b/c the AI starts with Archery.
As for
I haven't made it to Monarch difficulty yet, so a Quecha rush is about as useful as a normal warrior rush. Again, their usefulness wanes very quickly on LARGE landmasses
But, once I'm hitting the upper-middle difficulties like monarch/emperor, I imagine that Quechas are an unstoppably amazing UU. I mean, since I almost always warrior rush (unless the nearest enemy is far enough away), I would hate to have to give that up b/c the AI starts with Archery.
MonRiverMonarch
Oar Master
Sorry, I was exaggerating a bit. But, I generally neglect to build my military until its too late, then I have to rush units to meet the threat.
feralminded
Obsessive Number Cruncher
If you can take over a continent with any UU either the continent is tiny or your playing on too low of a difficulty level. At Emp+ the MOST you can hope for is a second capital and the units best at that are Quecha, WC, Immortal, Keshik, Numidan, and Praet. Axes behind walls fare ok against Praets ... but once you start rolling the CRs the Praets become unmanagable fast. That said the other units are also just as strong. The beauty of the Quecha, WC, and Immortal is if used smartly they can disconnect the enemies copper and then run them over because they're totally helpless. Impis are kings of this but they can't seal the deal once they hit the city. Quechas can because they arrive so early and the WC/Immortal because they are so fast and run over archers. If you disconnect the enemy's copper the Quecha may have to face AT MOST 1-2 Axes but if you did it right the number should be 0. The WC/Immortal will disconnect the copper and then face maybe 1 spear and its all over. Praets dominate well enough mostly because they stack defend as well as attack. The Keshik/Numidan strategy is more complex but also have the unique opportunity to dominate uncountered for a time. Once Longbows come Numidans run into heavier problems (unless well promoted, which is possible with Hannibal) but Keshiks still have a bit left in the tank.
The only thing keeping WC/Immortal from being THE BEST in my mind is they require horses which are not truly ubiquitous. I've run over enemies on Immortal difficulty with those units and it was fairly academic. WCs you promote up combat (they are immune to First Strikes and need the base strength bump to run over archers), Immortals up flanking to get immunity. Either unit with just 3xp walks over non-protective archers with ease.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Not playing Emp+.
Previous post:
You can't rush praetorians on a constant basis and simply overrun everyone on higher difficulties? Why not? (honest question as I've never played above prince)
Previous post:
You can't rush praetorians on a constant basis and simply overrun everyone on higher difficulties? Why not? (honest question as I've never played above prince)
feralminded
Obsessive Number Cruncher
Well at that point in the game they are WAY ahead of you on the tech curve. You don't usually get to IW before some of them are already at Construction without a really direct rush (worth it for Praets) but you've now sacrificed a lot of worker techs. The usual tactic is to tech your way to Aesthetics or Alphabet and then backfill all you missed on the way. You don't have that option with Praets because you want to get them FAST to truly dominate (and they truly will with a direct rush).
With a direct rush you will have maybe half of Wheel, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Fishing, Masonry, Pottery, Hunting, Archery ... and you won't have any religious techs you didn't start with and won't have writing so your tech rate will be garbage and you wont have anything to trade to the AI. At this point your Praets will still have to wade through A LOT of axes ... but they will win because they're Praets ... but don't surprised if you start with 12-14 to have only 4-5 left when you take the enemy capital. At that point you CAN continue your reign of terror but you won't be looking to take on a 2nd civilization because that would be suicide (you will lose that battle) ... you're looking to mop up the current civ you're working on. You will be WAY behind in techs at this point so after you finish your Praet war (its completely valid to stop as soon as you take that capital and maybe raze a couple other cities) ... you NEED to start teching because your economy will crash soon and CoL and Currency are your only hope and your going to have to tech your way there the hard way (although if you were smart and razed some territory with a couple of spare chariots you should be able to run a defecit economy for a while). Your Praets will soon be running into 60% culture and Longbows/Maces so they're all done.
Still on Emp+ ... you can turn that game around and win because you should now have twice the territory of anyone else and its good territory. Defend your borders, win the lib race, and turn it around with rifles.
What happens in higher levels is.
- The AI expands faster than you.
- The AI produces more units than you.
- The AI DRAMATICALLY out techs you.
If you are curious about moving up I authored a thread recently focusing on tips to take people there. Its still being actively edited but I think its fairly straightforward. No deep strategies here, just useful tactics that are applicable on any level but more or less required at the higher ones.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
oh...well then...
Quechas FTW on higher levels!
Sounds like I'll enjoy remaining on Noble/Prince for a while
Quechas FTW on higher levels!
Sounds like I'll enjoy remaining on Noble/Prince for a while
feralminded
Obsessive Number Cruncher
oh...well then...
Quechas FTW on higher levels!
Sounds like I'll enjoy remaining on Noble/Prince for a while
Hey there's nothing wrong with that. Just understand as with everything its a different game. I mean the difference between Marathon and any other speed is zany. The difference between map sizes is definitely there. The water units are much stronger on archipelago maps. Really these polls should specify at least the difficulty level, speed, and map size. The best unit on settler is not the best unit on deity. Same for size, speed, and map type.
And don't doubt how stong Praets are. Even on the highest levels they're still valid ... just not as dominant as they are on lower levels.
We interrupt our regularly scheduled programming for the following announcement:
Two more votes for Conqs? Yeah!
C'mon, where's the love? A unit that has 2 moves, defensive bonuses, and completely ends the late-medeivel Macemen stalemate by eating EVERYTHING before it for breakfast with no counter until Rifling (which for some reason, and someone explain this to me, the AI is loath to research). Neat graphics and just plain fun.
Now back to our regularly scheduled Praet debate...
Two more votes for Conqs? Yeah!
C'mon, where's the love? A unit that has 2 moves, defensive bonuses, and completely ends the late-medeivel Macemen stalemate by eating EVERYTHING before it for breakfast with no counter until Rifling (which for some reason, and someone explain this to me, the AI is loath to research). Neat graphics and just plain fun.
Now back to our regularly scheduled Praet debate...
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
@Feralminded: True that. I usually play Marathon/Huge/Custom Continents (or terra, big/small, medium/small) and Noble (or Prince on Earth 18). So my UU of choice is almost always the Praetorian. But I don't play as Rome very often since I love to play with variety
As for this:
Elephants can usually deal pretty easily with the conquistadors (on the defensive).
EDIT: Took out pikemen
EDIT2: Took out landschneks (spelling?)
As for this:
Elephants can usually deal pretty easily with the conquistadors (on the defensive).
EDIT: Took out pikemen
EDIT2: Took out landschneks (spelling?)
conqs do not fear nor pikes neither landknechts
conqs ignore walls and castles
they beat elephant because they have higher base strength
they are only worse than 2combat+formation elephants, but elephants are rare and unlikely to be promoted to formation by AI
so i voted for them.
preats are of course great. but iron that early is a great limitation.
if you start isolated, your preats only do you good to lift you power rating.
while conqs make excelent overseas invaders.
they are useful on any map
conqs ignore walls and castles
they beat elephant because they have higher base strength
they are only worse than 2combat+formation elephants, but elephants are rare and unlikely to be promoted to formation by AI
so i voted for them.
preats are of course great. but iron that early is a great limitation.
if you start isolated, your preats only do you good to lift you power rating.
while conqs make excelent overseas invaders.
they are useful on any map
