PolyCast Episode 278: "Go Deeper"

[DanQ]

[img=right]http://civcomm.civfanatics.com/polycast/images/polycast_logo.jpg[/img] More meaningful. The two-hundred-and-seventy-eighth episode of PolyCast, "Go Deeper", features regular co-hosts Daniel "DanQ" Quick, Stephanie "Makahlua" and "MadDjinn" with returning guest co-host Steve "WarningU2" Warner and first-time guest co-host Anthony "ztaesek" Seekatz. It carries a runtime of 59m59s.

The summary of topics is as follows:

- 01m12s | News
Talking up and down the "Spring 2017" patch for Civilization VI accompanied by civilizations Macedon (28m53s) and Persia (37m30s).
- 44m09s | Miscellaneous
Recognizing Christopher Tin as the composer of CivVI's theme (recorded for Episode 267), taking in Scout behaviour (48m20s; recorded for Episode 276) and condensing a rundown of playing "too much" Civilization VI (50m30s).

- Intro/Outro | Miscellaneous
Out of alignment, subconscious musings and reference triggering.

PolyCast is a bi-weekly audio production recording live every other Saturday throughout the year, in an ongoing effort to give the Civilization community an interactive voice; sibling show ModCast focuses on Civ modding, TurnCast on Civ multiplay.

 

[DemonMaster]

Hmm, to have a discussion and avoiding having it become Let's Thrash and Joke is hard, apparently, and TheMeInTeam was not even in it

 

[DanQ]

Hmm, to have a discussion and avoiding having it become Let's Thrash and Joke is hard, apparently, and TheMeInTeam was not even in it

Are you referring to our discussion of the latest CivVI patch in particular? While we were critical of parts of it, we acknowledge that generally what is needed is more of what it introduced -- that there has been progress, but not enough.

 

[DemonMaster]

Are you referring to our discussion of the latest CivVI patch in particular? While we were critical of parts of it, we acknowledge that generally what is needed is more of what it introduced -- that there has been progress, but not enough.

I stopped listening to you some time ago because it had become to much of a who can thrash the most pod. I decided to listen to you again and check what you do now. Maybe bad timing that I decided to do that this week, I don't know. It is fine line between criticizing & discussion and thrashing & whining. That's ok, it's me. Forums and other social media is full of these behaviour. I have grown tired of it. That's all. I'm sure that others find you entertaining to listen to.

 

[Victoria]

I gave up on youtubers 3 years ago, the agenda is them, not the game
This forum and the wonderful funny, spiky, astute and deranged are just miles above a 1 hour listen to me and join my channel.

 

[DanQ]

I stopped listening to you some time ago because it had become to much of a who can thrash the most pod. I decided to listen to you again and check what you do now. Maybe bad timing that I decided to do that this week, I don't know. It is fine line between criticizing & discussion and thrashing & whining. That's ok, it's me. Forums and other social media is full of these behaviour. I have grown tired of it. That's all. I'm sure that others find you entertaining to listen to.

I disagree that we "thrash"; our constructive criticisms also include practical, meaningful suggestions to address those criticisms. That said I'm disappointed that you did not find our approach to discussing latest Civilization VI patch to be one that presents criticisms constructively, or at least constructively enough. We also discussed the two newest civilizations added to the game subsequently in addition to a few other topics. I appreciate that you were listening to the show for the first time in a few years after stopping for the same reason. If you have listened to this entire episode and have not found it to your satisfaction for the reason you cite, it is then as you say not to your tastes and thank you for your time nonetheless.

I gave up on youtubers 3 years ago, the agenda is them, not the game
This forum and the wonderful funny, spiky, astute and deranged are just miles above a 1 hour listen to me and join my channel.

For clarification, PolyCast (PC) is not a "YouTuber" production but rather a podcast that is also available for listening on YouTube.

 

[sadsquid]

Haven't listened to this episode yet, I'm just about to actually. But in regards to being overly critical, I do think TheMeInTeam does come across a bit condescending (he is always right and his way is always best) and too cynical much of the time. It's not so bad it makes me want to stop listening or anything, it's just noticeable. The rest of the cast I think has a pretty good balance generally, I think it shows that you do love the franchise, but don't take it or yourselves too seriously either. Keep it up!

 

[oklibrarian]

Haven't listened to this episode yet, I'm just about to actually. But in regards to being overly critical, I do think TheMeInTeam does come across a bit condescending (he is always right and his way is always best) and too cynical much of the time. It's not so bad it makes me want to stop listening or anything, it's just noticeable. The rest of the cast I think has a pretty good balance generally, I think it shows that you do love the franchise, but don't take it or yourselves too seriously either. Keep it up!

Put me down as a fan of the show--I've listened on and off over the years but became a regular in the runup to Civ 6. As someone who also cohosts a beloved and popular podcast about somebody else's intellectual property, there's a perpetual balancing act between supporting the brand you love enough to podcast about, providing honest feedback to fans, and keeping your own minor "fame" in perspective. I think the Polycast team threads that needle well. Keep up the good work!

 

[CaptainUnknown]

I just started to really get into podcasts and I have been binge listening the show. Keep up the good work!

 

[Magil]

I disagree that we "thrash"; our constructive criticisms also include practical, meaningful suggestions to address those criticisms. That said I'm disappointed that you did not find our approach to discussing latest Civilization VI patch to be one that presents criticisms constructively, or at least constructively enough. We also discussed the two newest civilizations added to the game subsequently in addition to a few other topics. I appreciate that you were listening to the show for the first time in a few years after stopping for the same reason. If you have listened to this entire episode and have not found it to your satisfaction for the reason you cite, it is then as you say not to your tastes and thank you for your time nonetheless.

As far as constructive criticism goes: the casters did go on for a very, very long time about all the little diplomatic annoyances that apparently bothered them for one reason or another. Like, okay, we get that you think diplomacy needs some work, but the dozen+ examples were probably a bit excessive. Once you got past that part it was more interesting, though.

 

[Scaramanga]

So harbour districts should go full Encampment and be able to defend like them?

 

[Victoria]

So harbour districts should go full Encampment and be able to defend like them?

lol, really? I guess I will have to listen just for the laugh

 

[Scaramanga]

lol, really? I guess I will have to listen just for the laugh

That's what I read into it. That harbours should be more like encampments, therefore they should defend.

 

[Victoria]

I think they were first trying to liken them to encampments but ended up saying they should concentrate on being ship builders which is not a bad idea. They too the completely wrong tack on diplomacy though. When a civ says "I like your science output" all its doing is saying i am a technophile and so you now have +6 with me. The fact that you have -30 with them and they will denounce you makes perfect sense to me. Its just a useful informational message unless you have gone OTT with warmonger.

 

[DanQ]

... I think it shows that you do love the franchise, but don't take it or yourselves too seriously either. Keep it up!

Put me down as a fan of the show--I've listened on and off over the years but became a regular in the runup to Civ 6. [..] ... there's a perpetual balancing act between supporting the brand you love enough to podcast about, providing honest feedback to fans, and keeping your own minor "fame" in perspective. I think the Polycast team threads that needle well. Keep up the good work!

Thank you both.

As far as constructive criticism goes: the casters did go on for a very, very long time about all the little diplomatic annoyances that apparently bothered them for one reason or another. Like, okay, we get that you think diplomacy needs some work, but the dozen+ examples were probably a bit excessive. Once you got past that part it was more interesting, though.

We were looking to illustrate the extent to which we are individually, and collectively, concerned about CivVI's diplomacy in practice. Still I can understand a 'less is more' here given the subject matter was not diplomacy specifically. Glad you enjoyed the listen otherwise.

So harbour districts should go full Encampment and be able to defend like them?

I think they were first trying to liken them to encampments but ended up saying they should concentrate on being ship builders...

Victoria is correct. We likened Harbours to Encampments for the focus on unit production, noting this specifically then discussing further -- not the defensive capability. (Though I can't be certain, I expect I speak for my fellow panelists as well as myself when I say no to the latter!)

They too the completely wrong tack on diplomacy though. When a civ says "I like your science output" all its doing is saying i am a technophile and so you now have +6 with me. The fact that you have -30 with them and they will denounce you makes perfect sense to me. Its just a useful informational message unless you have gone OTT with warmonger.

Our juxtaposition was strictly the point, counter-point of both a positive and negative modifier where the negative modifier comes out on top -- no other modifiers in consideration.

 

[MadDjinn]

On harbours, I was suggesting to move them towards the encampment 'rung' and away from the Commerce/Specialty district style.

It's currently a hybrid and not doing a good job in either respect.

Though, don't know if Dan left it in, but my end conclusion is that we should have an alternate line of buildings for the harbour. Have a commerce line (doing something other than what the commerce district does) and a military line for production.

 

[Morgawr]

I enjoy your pod casts a lot - keep it up! It is a nice alternative / supplement to reading the forums or watching videos of game play. It feels like the hosts do play the game a lot and are passionate about it and make good suggestions to improve it.

 

[kaspergm]

On harbours, I was suggesting to move them towards the encampment 'rung' and away from the Commerce/Specialty district style.

It's currently a hybrid and not doing a good job in either respect.

Though, don't know if Dan left it in, but my end conclusion is that we should have an alternate line of buildings for the harbour. Have a commerce line (doing something other than what the commerce district does) and a military line for production.

That was left in. I do agree that Harbor district is sitting in an uncomfortable neither/nor position, but personally, I'd rather see it separated into two different districts, let's call them "Harbor" and "Naval Base" for the sake of discussion. The Harbor district would focus on the growth/economic aspects of current district, while the Naval Base district would get fortification and add bonuses for naval unit production and leveling. While I do realize there's a risk of district overload in the game, given how most ocean tiles just sit around doing nothing anyway, I think this would be a better solution. In Civ5, I always felt that the lack of naval defences was an issue, particularly considering how devastating a focused naval city attack could be.

 

[Victoria]

I always felt that the lack of naval defences was an issue, particularly considering how devastating a focused naval city attack could be.

Have you tried taking a city with a frigate and a crossbow inside it as well as defenses? If I was at all worried I would build an encampment next to the harbor... but I have never lost a city so the whole discussion to me is moot.

With my ships moving 6-7 tiles per turn I can also get a fleet there pretty damn quick. People seem to ignore the +1 movement for the RNDY but add the great lighthouse to that and you can out run or out chase any navy. Just +1 means I can keep up and shoot. Fleeing navies may alter course so +2 helps a bit more.

I really hate the way people polarise everything and want to categorise something into gold or prod. The harbour is a harbour its not a friggin encampment or CD... it is a general utility of good power and the RNDY is now much stronger with the +2 gold for off continent converting well into production, the +1 movement for all ships built there and the extra trade route, let alone you have monster food/gold growth from the water

I have a harbour with 2 fish (2 gold), off continent (2 gold) adjacent to a city (2 gold) with a CD also adjacent (1 gold) This all is doubled with a harbour adjacency card to +14 gold... more importantly it then means +14 production with a shipyard.. If the CD is next to a river that has +5 gold making it +19 Gold +14 production and 2 trade routes.

Go deeper is what I suggest - look at the end of the 2nd to last sentence

 

[Scaramanga]

I think if you build an Encampment in your Harbour city, especially if it's right beside the Harbour, you've already created a Naval Base district through synergy. Encampment buildings and citizens give production that can be applied to all unit production so there's no need to make the Harbour a crossroads between units and commerce when you could build a Commerce Hub instead of an Encampment and then you've synergized with commerce. The strategic benefit of the Harbour is that you don't have to build a city on a coast and the commercial benefit is the trade route. Everything else is synergetic bonus.