Population (worked tiles) diminishing returns?

[Bibor]

So, I saved a map of my recent game because I was awestuck on how awesome the map looked like (which doesn't mean it is), as well as being fully aware that I have decisions to make regarding number of cities and overall population growth.

Long story short, it's a fractal Pangaea, centered around the equator, meaning jungle stretches from west to east. We (Dutch) start on the far west, and then a long, 10-tile wide stretch of jungle, and then Brennus, and after him a hell hole of warmongers and other nasties.

If I block off the peninsula (which is 90% jungle), I can get 15, probably up to like 18 cities all by myself, almost completely uncontested. I also get at least one or two gems and two or more sugar. Which wouldn't be important except for the fact my core cities have bucketloads of food, but not much else, so I need something I can trade off.

I tried whipping, but there's only so much you can whip without going into unmanageable anger, so I decided, contrary to the agreed concept that jungle is bad, to expand into the jungle and get them resources returns from that land eventually. Can't really go wrong with future grassland financial cottages, right?

So here's my question: is there a number of cities optimal for a space race? Because it seems to me that my launch date (mind you this is Emperor, so no much trade with AI going) isn't that spectacular compared to other starts that had way less food and way less cottagable space, although I have super high pop and super-productive cities.

How could've I played this one differently? Stick to my core area and ignore the jungle? Stack cities more tightly?

 

[krikav]

Optimal number of cities for space race? Yes, all of them!

I think at least the two eastern cities are holding you back. I think you are overstretching and that the time it takes for them two to get up to speed and start contributing is too long.
There are still places to settle closer nearby, and the lowest hanging fruits should be picked first.

Rotterdam with the pigs, iron, ivory yummyness all on river I would have settled too, but nothing further than that.
Ideally brennus would have developed that jungle for you and you could take it from him later on.
Also, when you have an AI that blocks you from some maniacs like that, it can be beneficial to not starve them of land completely, less they become too weak and are likely to become some warmongerers vassal.

In The Hague, I would have farmed some of the floodplains to be able to work the gold quicker and be able to grow. Only to replace them with cottages later on.

 

[krikav]

Looked at your starting save too.
T0 you should probably have settled on the banana.
That the wet corn 1 tile away from your initial settler is not improved and being worked by a city at 75AD is really really bad.

 

[Bibor]

Also, when you have an AI that blocks you from some maniacs like that, it can be beneficial to not starve them of land completely, less they become too weak and are likely to become some warmongerers vassal.

And this my main issue. Brennus has as much land as I do. If I let him get the jungle (he has no competition for it), he'll have like 20 cities by the time I am ready to tackle him.

Settling on the banana and not working the wet corn, I know, but that was my choice - either settle the jungle, or dot the surroundings with cities. If I don't settle that jungle, Brennus will settle it really quick. This save I made was like 3rd attempt/experiment. In the previous two Brennus came close to Rotterdam, that's how fast he expands.

My question is this: if I settle no further than Rotterdam, and perhaps the sugar/rice city south of it, is this enough cities to be competitive for space? If I choose this route, I have no way to compete militarily with brennus, I'd have to take like 10 cities to cap him and if that's the case, I might as well go full conquest on everyone.

 

[krikav]

For sure it's enough to reach space.
Look at this nice example:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ar-of-the-vikings.483619/page-3#post-12118089
He goes to space on deity, with a horsehockey island. w/o any combat.

Let Brennus settle the jungle, it will slow him down significantly, almost to the point that he will be at longbows when you are launching your spaceship.
Abit excagarated, but there should be no problem at all really, getting a huge tech advantage over him and then bribe him or some other warmongerer against each other and then backstab him with som technologically superior unit. Secure that jungle territory and then turn back to teching.

You might have to watch out for a early DoW, but I think that is quite unlikely since you won't be a land target for him for quite some time.
And it should also be very easy to get him to pleased, since his fav civic is OR, and he cares ALOT about religion.
Basically, he will be a very loyal meat-shield, making it possible for you to completly ignore diplomacy further east, if you so pleases.
Here is Brennus:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/#post-11931692

As to why not go full conquest? Well, thats probably because you want to win a space victory I guess?

 

[coanda]

Two fog-of-war tiles northeast of Rotterdam on the coast are costing you a ton. They're leaving Maastricht short on health (no connection to capital) wasting 2F a turn, and forcing your core cities to rely on internal trade routes when foreign trade would be giving you an extra 2 commerce per city per turn right now. Plus they are crippling your chances of getting a religion spread from Brennus.

Would be nice if you'd dropped 15 hammers into a Scout or 40 into a Chariot at some point just to go wandering around using Open Borders to check out neighbors and meet more AIs. More options for foreign trade route commerce, better tech trading, better information about the overall strategic state of the game.

Speaking of trading... you've got a spare iron, spare banana, 3 spare gold resources, and a bunch of monopoly techs. It's good to be supplying the AIs with resources (it boosts their opinion of you over time), and you can hopefully finagle some gold per turn or resources of your own in exchange too. It's okay to let the AIs "rip you off" a little, as long as you're making a LOT of trades with a bunch of different AIs.

It'd be pretty easy to get Brennus to Pleased or even Friendly status and remove the threat of him declaring war on you plus open up some more trading options.

Edit: And super-super-agree with Krikav about settling 1S on top of the banana being a stronger move than migrating east to settle... in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Anysense]

@Bibor
You are expanding too slow. Try to replay and get to 10 cities by 1AD as an exercise. Seek to claim all the best food ASAP. Your second city should, probably, be settled on the wet corn+fish spot which you ignored completely. Don't get blinded by off-river desert gold, its not that good and The Hague isn't even working most of it.

 

[Fippy]

About your concerns with whip anger and unhappy population,
i worldbuildered a city (your cap settled on )

Spoiler :

Instead of whip anger, i gave it size 6 and no guard for 3 unhappies.

You can see that even in this state, a new settler could be produced in 8t without help (chops i.e.).
While doing so, ~1 whip anger would fade away, also worth mentioning that unhappy citizens are not consuming food (= hammers) while building settlers or workers.

Worrying about unhappy pop can really slow you down.
Usually you will not have 3 unhappies, but even if you do such food rich cities can still remain productive.
Always wanting your food improved & worked = very good advice, avoiding unhappy pop at all cost = bad advice (sadly included in-game by a questionable hint).
Strong players will manage their unhappy in advanced ways, but they will also follow "always get & work your food".

Think of wet corn as a ~10 hammers mine, cos it's worth about that much with granaries.
And unhappy pop, well they are just 1 tile lost. But also 30h when whipped away
There are maaaany advanced strats in Civ, but for food those best tips very rarely (if ever) change, and you can only overthink too much with it.

 

[Bibor]

@Bibor
You are expanding too slow. Try to replay and get to 10 cities by 1AD as an exercise. Seek to claim all the best food ASAP. Your second city should, probably, be settled on the wet corn+fish spot which you ignored completely. Don't get blinded by off-river desert gold, its not that good and The Hague isn't even working most of it.

Will do just that, try and get 10 cities by 1 AD. Hopefully it won't bankrupt me I made a dotmap that fit 12 cities reasonably well, well into the jungle (I don't think those 2 spots way south are that good).

Speaking of which, @Fippy I can't place tha capital on the banana, without my OCD causing me physical pain - there's no way I can place a city for the 3-gold without losing out on fresh water and one floodplain. I'd have to settle the capital 1 SE of spawn, which still grabs 2 corn.

unhappy citizens are not consuming food (= hammers) while building settlers or workers.

This is huge! Didn't know angry citizens were happy to starve so that other citizens may be sent away. So, basically, whip them food-rich cities to connect more distant luxuries to negate the happiness loss?

 

[coanda]

Something to keep in mind when managing whip unhappiness is that 1 whip = 10 turns of unhappiness. This is true whether it is a 1-pop, 2-pop, or 3-pop whip. With a really food-rich city, you almost never want to be doing a 1-pop whip. That's throwing hammers away. You want to be 2- or preferably 3-pop whipping.

So here's an example possible 10-turn loop, supposing you settled 1S on the banana. The city is size-6 with 1 unhappy citizen, a granary, a 3-food city tile, two wet corn farms, and a pair of thatch roofed cottages being worked. It has 36 hammers into a settler already.

Turn 1: 3-pop whip settler. 90 hammers (whip) + 11 hammers (food) + 1 hammer (city tile). Work 1 cottage.
Turn 2: Overflow hammers plus 1 hammer into something hammer centric - say, axemen. Grow to size 4. Work 1 cottage.
Turn 3: 1 hammer into axeman. Almost size 5. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 4: 11H (food) + 1 hammer (city tile) into worker. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 5: 11H (food) + 1 hammer (city tile) into worker. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 6: 11H (food) + 1 hammer (city tile) into settler or worker. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 7: 11H (food) + 1 hammer (city tile) into settler or worker. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 8: 11H (food) + 1 hammer (city tile) into settler. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 9: 1 hammer into axeman. Grow to size 5, 1 angry citizen. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 10: 1 hammer into axeman. Grow to size 6, 2 angry citizens. Work 2 cottages.
Turn 11: Back to the same state as on turn 1, except you have produced 166 hammers and 18 cottage commerce turns. Loop complete, could repeat indefinitely if you wanted.

Obviously nobody would ever just repeat a 10-turn loop like this all game. It's just a thought experiment to show how juggling city production queues a little can get you more hammers for less unhappiness from your whipping.

 

[Swordnboard]

Hey Bibor!

I think the answer to your question on how to get the most out of this map lies in the old cliche about real estate: location, location, location. All of the cities you placed in the core area are quite good, but there are other good spots even closer to Amsterdam, that would enable saved worker turns and tile sharing. Similarly, Nijmegen and Maastricht aren't terrible, and do block off land, but their extreme distance puts a drain on your resources in terms of both worker turns and maintenance. Generally, letting the AI settle stuff like that is fine, we'll just take their land later .

As for whipping, others have given you some good techniques for managing the unhappiness. Also of note is that, at some point you've finished most of the expansion you want to do and instead want to prioritize research. At that point, there isn't really a need to whip anymore, the goal is just to maximize cottage-turns and specialist-turns. Switching to hereditary rule (or rep if available) and caste system can help a lot on that. Since there's such an abundance of land available, this point may come later in your game, but my guess would be after you reach about 10 cities. (All of that goes out the window when planning a war, then the whip is very good again).

Anyways, I love Willem as a leader so much that I just had to play a bit of this map. Here's a save from T50 (should take a look after you get there on your replay). Double wet corn and settling on banana allow some ridiculous expansion. I'll play some more and post saves at T75, T100, and 1 AD if you'd like to see them.

 

[Bibor]

Hey Swordnboard, I looked at your save - interesting approach! Yes, I'd love for you to play to 1 AD to see the difference.

@Anysense Here's my new save at 1 AD (well, 25 AD as I forgot to save), I did aim for 10 cities till 1 AD and I managed to grab most of the jungle. I plan to chill with new cities for a while, until I get these up and running.
I think I improved my gameplay this time around... obviously it's way easier when you know the map already.

B.

 

[sampsa]

It's not bad of course, but I'd expect sw'n'b to beat it by thousands of beakers. Expansion hasn't been very swift (maybe you slowbuilt too many settlers/workers instead of whipping?). No trade routes for resource trades for the rest of the AI is also really holding you back.

 

[Swordnboard]

This is a lot better! As Sampsa mentions, foreign traderoutes and resource trades would go a long way on this map (not the easiest to establish given the long distances and barbarians, but worth a shot). Some other things that I see that could be improved: not having a GS yet is a little slow, it's probably possible to manage two at this point in time. Also, avoiding the mysticism tech line has cost you here: I researched mysticism and priesthood myself, and was able to acquire masonry, meditation and monarchy through trade, earn some failgold on the oracle (curse you, Isabella!), plus sell off meditation and priesthood for gold to numerous AI when I reached currency. You'd also be able to switch to HR + Organized religion for happiness and diplomatic bonuses.

Also, I notice you have an enormous horde of workers (14!) but still a lot of jungle and unimproved tiles. I'd wager your gameplay would improve quite a bit if you really focus on not wasting worker turns (i.e. try to move-and-improve whenever possible, only 1 worker per hill mined or jungle chopped, try to minimize movement between cities).

 

[coanda]

On the plus side, he's just about to get those trade routes with AIs hooked up. Barb city Minoan's cultural borders blocking the coast is the only thing cutting off his trade, and he's got a sword and a pair of axes bordering it already. Unless he gets particularly unlucky in that assault, AI trade routes are literally a single turn in the future.

 

[Bibor]

It's not bad of course, but I'd expect sw'n'b to beat it by thousands of beakers. Expansion hasn't been very swift (maybe you slowbuilt too many settlers/workers instead of whipping?). No trade routes for resource trades for the rest of the AI is also really holding you back.

I do have trade routes to foreign cities, made sure this time to have a coastal connection to both Brennus and Shaka (Shaka being blocked by 2 barb cities), however, no AI has any resources to trade for quite a few turns after this save was made.
I did whip a lot, the only city I didn't whip is the one with horses/clam/gold. Perhaps I could've whipped more, not sure. I did whip a horde of workers, and I rarely waste worker turns, especially in the early game. My worker micro is not ideal because, well, here's another question then:

lets say I have 2 workers and the only source of food for a new city is below a jungle tile. What I'd usually do is "waste" 1 worker turn on both workers moving to that jungle tile (instead of just one), because my reasoning is, with 2 workers, it takes 2 turns to chop and 2 turns to improve. With just 1 worker, the tile would not be productive for 8 turns. So for 1 worker turn I'm trading off the city growing faster by 4 turns. Does this make sense?

On the plus side, he's just about to get those trade routes with AIs hooked up. Barb city Minoan's cultural borders blocking the coast is the only thing cutting off his trade, and he's got a sword and a pair of axes bordering it already. Unless he gets particularly unlucky in that assault, AI trade routes are literally a single turn in the future.

Unfortunately not the case - the other barb city further east also blocks trade routes. I do have trade routes with Brennus - made sure no barb city spawned in the northern part of the peninsula, but unfortunately at this turn Brennus is not yet connected to the rest of the world.

Some other things that I see that could be improved: not having a GS yet is a little slow, it's probably possible to manage two at this point in time.

I find this possible only if the northern Fish+Clam city would've been my third, but I really wanted the ivory city up and running before that. I don't know if it would be worth it to run 2 scientists in the capital with all the whipping, I wouldn't ve been working my cottages. Would 2 great scientist by this point really be that important? I'm just about to get my first one, and the northern city is halfway there for another scientist.

I would really appreciate if someone played to 25 AD with this city placement to see what can be done and how. I know this is not an official thread for these kinds of things, but this is the map I lost some sleep over

 

[Swordnboard]

I'm working on getting to 1 AD (At turn 94 now). Not sure why you are insistent on someone playing through with your particular city placement: it really is one of the largest deciding factors in the outcome of one's game. Especially the capital which snowballs the game more than almost anything.

On scientists: since we're creative, cities can get up libraries really early. Basically any city with a food resource (not just powerhouses like clam/fish) can work two scientists. So to achieve 2 great scientists by 1 AD (turn 115) we would have to have two cities working two scientists apiece by turn 81 which is pretty manageable. And that doesn't include Golden Ages, parthenon, or pacifism, which aren't necessary but can sometimes be good to set up.

As for the workers: it does make sense to get food up and running fast when a new city pops up. But the chopping can actually get done in advance, since you can chop jungles that are outside of your cultural borders. So that would be the best of both worlds, but losing a worker turn like that every once in a while is OK. I think the main factor is probably the spread-out nature of your empire (workers spend more time moving and roading). The only reason I asked is because I've been running with a lot fewer workers and feeling OK about it.

Edit: Played until T100. Will try to reach 1 AD tonight sometime. Here are my saves from T75 and T100

 

[Fish Man]

Looked at your save. You've got the basics down but are missing out on some key things.

First...markets and courthouses are useless for the most part. An exception can be made if you're org and/or had to settle something 20 tiles away from cap early on for some reason, but for the most part, these buildings will be made obsolete by the time they start even remotely paying off.

What do I mean by obsolete? Simple: communism. State property is the #1 most powerful civic outside of slavery for space games. It gives you massive self-sustaining production (green workshops are now food neutral; watermills are basically farmtermills), effectively halves your total maintenance, and together with caste shifts focus to a hammer economy. By the end of the game build wealth should more than cover all your costs, and build research should be about 1/3-1/2 your bpt. So, with city maintenance being at most 6gpt on emperor, and the gold modifiers being completely useless once you start sustaining costs by building wealth, markets/courthouses become useless very early on, and often as early as you can possibly make it because SP is the thing to shoot for on standard space games.

The other thing, of course, is land. And this no HoF start, unfortunately - the jungle's something that cripples anyone who expands into it, for a long time. What I recommend, then, is doing what others have said, and letting Brennus settle that before taking the fully-matured cities from him. This has several advantages:
1. It's a far longer period of time before you become a land target.
2. You don't have to pay maintenance for cities that, for 30-50 turns or more, just drain your funds and provide nothing in return (I mean seriously...20 turns for a worker is something nobody should ever have to suffer through). But if you don't settle the jungle and let him do it, he develops them for you so you can take them when they're fully matured with buildings and, most importantly, the jungle cleared. So, in the end, you get the same number of cities at the same time, but without paying the maintenance for the first 30-50 turns of their existence, while also spending these hammers in a much better way by settling your resource-rich backyard.
3. Brennus getting too many cities is not a concern. The AI folds very easily on emperor, if you concentrate on the war effort instead of splitting your attention. You can outtech them for a long time even if they have more cities, and a couple of whips and you can easily have 2 dozen units in less than a dozen turns.
4. War with Brennus is inevitable. The 2nd most important component of a space win besides communism is LAND and you want at least 50% of the planet at the end of the game. Generally, the more useful land you can get faster, the better off you are.

This brings me to the 3rd part of my critique - rush strats. The most efficient way to get good land, fast, at emperor+ is rushing. At this level because you have ivory you can wait for whoever to settle the jungle, clear it, and then bumrush them with cats and elephants. AIs on emperor get feudalism pretty slow, so you have a window of opportunity to take out an AI, maybe even two, pretty casually. You can also do cuirs but I think that's a pretty big detour and slightly overkill. At this level AI stacks aren't gonna be more than 10 units in the classical era which sounds tough until you realize you can totally smash that with 6 cats and 10 phants.

Now, letting Brennus settle means that you can tech faster and build an army sooner without getting dragged down by jungle cities. So, when you get the ball rolling, you can crush him that much faster (his jungle cities won't be useful for building reinforcements for a long time, remember) and then use that momentum and tech advantage to move on to the next target. What I'm trying to explain here is that letting Brennus get the jungle will actually help you expand faster in the medium and long term. It will also increase your general tech pace (city capture gold is not to be underestimated, and you can get ahead faster with wiser settling choices, starting a snowballing effect), getting you to communism that much faster...and of course teching faster means faster space win, by definition.

I might or might not play through this game depending on how much time I have, but meanwhile, see my NC 201 game for how to hyperexpand and tech for a space win (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-201-alexander-of-greece.639246/#post-15294896) though admittedly I played on a lower difficulty.

 

[Bibor]

On scientists: since we're creative, cities can get up libraries really early. Basically any city with a food resource (not just powerhouses like clam/fish) can work two scientists.

I understand this, but what are the benefits of getting them this early? Apart for the academy in capital, I'm not planning on bulbing anything for a while. Should I be bulbing something? Perhaps Philosophy?
Since I'm fin, isn't it more beneficial short term to work the cottages instead?

Not sure why you are insistent on someone playing through with your particular city placement: it really is one of the largest deciding factors in the outcome of one's game.

I'm not insisting on anything, just asking. My reasoning is that it would help me with understanding how I can improve my micro if we deal with same distances and tiles.

@Undefeatable I think I finally understand what I'm doing wrong. I'm trying to "empire build" where I should be really simply be trying to win. These conflicting parts of my game play style is what's slowing me down.

 

[sampsa]

@Bibor Not settling on banana slows you down significantly so it's a bit strange you don't do it on your 2nd run. I'd suggest you to really investigate Swnb's T100-save, I think it shows the essence of what you need to understand in order to improve your play. Look at the buildings, how many mines are built, what techs to aim for. I would have been tempted already to build swords for Tartar to open up resource trades with the rest of the world. I know that in your save you have trade routes with Brennus which is great of course, but resource trades are very important especially pre-HR. Swnb is running HR so I guess it's not that important.