[NFP] Portugal Reveal Video Discussion

[Boris Gudenuf]

One of my very best friends for years was American of Portuguese immigrant parents and very proud of his heritage.
The only thing he ever said as a definition of Portuguese, and he was very firm abut this, was that they were Not Spanish.

 

[God of Kings]

I've jokingly thought America should be able to build a McDonalds improvement in other civ's territory. Somehow they stole my idea that i never mentioned. As someone who plays Norway i'm all for having more costal improvements built. I wonder it they can be repaired.

...or Canada having the ability to cover almost every square inch of land in Tim Hortons.

 

[Guynemer]

...or Canada having the ability to cover almost every square inch of land in Tim Hortons.

...............I'm listening, please go on

 

[Giskler]

My point was that personal perceptions should be understood as such. Case in point, your girlfriend and onepurpose's wife, both Portuguese, hold opposing beliefs about how the Portuguese see themselves. More than likely these are just reflections of how they see themselves, and the groups they more commonly interact with. Yet you both presented it matter-of-factly as if the views of your partners were palpable like solids.

"My wife/girlfriend, who is Scottish, says the Scottish see themselves as British/not British" - That's how undecipherable the argument you two are making is, yet confident you have the right answer.

Potato, Potatoe.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Potato, Potatoe.

I'm pretty sure this expression and "to-mei-toe/to-mah-toe" mean two opinions that sound different on paper but are actually the same. Both you and onepurpose had the same premise (having a Portuguese gf) but claimed two directly opposite things, so I wouldn't say the expression "Potato, Potatoe" really cuts it here.

 

[Giskler]

I'm pretty sure this expression and "to-mei-toe/to-mah-toe" mean two opinions that sound different on paper but are actually the same. Both you and onepurpose had the same premise (having a Portuguese gf) but claimed two directly opposite things, so I wouldn't say the expression "Potato, Potatoe" really cuts it here.

Here's a definition of the idiom:

A negligible, trivial, or unimportant difference, distinction, or correction. (While "potahto" is not an accepted pronunciation in any English-speaking population, the phrase is an allusion to a verse in the song "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off": "You like potayto, I like potahto; you like tomayto, I like tomahto; potayto, potahto, tomayto, tomahto, let's call the whole thing off!")

It's not worth arguing over.

 

[fy00sh]

I guess you could say we're comparing potaytoes to potahtoes, eh? I'm not sorry >:]

Anyways do we think that Portugal benefits particularly more from the Torre de Belém than other civs? I really like it when civs benefit particularly well from wonders that come from their lands irl. I'm thinking yeah for the international trade route bonuses for luxury resources playing well off of Feitorias needing to be next to bonus or luxury resources. But the free buildings on foreign continents I'm not so sure about. Portugal wouldn't want to conquer foreign civs that much, at least by the time they're uncovering civs on other continents, to avoid making potential trading partners angry enough to declare war. Plus they don't get perticularly many bonuses to loyalty, and with their increased trade range on water they'll probably not need foreign-continent colonies to get trade routes to other civs. But what do yall think?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Anyways do we think that Portugal benefits particularly more from the Torre de Belém than other civs? I really like it when civs benefit particularly well from wonders that come from their lands irl. I'm thinking yeah for the international trade route bonuses for luxury resources playing well off of Feitorias needing to be next to bonus or luxury resources. But the free buildings on foreign continents I'm not so sure about. Portugal wouldn't want to conquer foreign civs that much, at least by the time they're uncovering civs on other continents, to avoid making potential trading partners angry enough to declare war. Plus they don't get perticularly many bonuses to loyalty, and with their increased trade range on water they'll probably not need foreign-continent colonies to get trade routes to other civs. But what do yall think?

The gold bonus of Torre is just a better Market Economy card, not to say that Portugal already has a high gold income even without it.

And as you said, free building on foreign continent doesn't really benefit Portugal as well; they will be neither interested in conquering a lot of cities on foreign continent nor founding a lot of cities on foreign continent.

I would say Torre is more beneficial to multicontinental colonizers and conquerors - England, Norway, Maori, Phoenicia, Spain (if you really can pull it off), and all the pre-Renaissance warmongers. Imagine wipe out all the other civs on your home hemisphere - which usually has at least 2 continents - and then finish the Torre.

 

[canadamufc]

So, I really like the civ.

Second, is it just me or does Joao III look like he hasn't slept in 72 hours? Especially at 0:18 when he looks down on you, it is very prevalent to see the markings below his eyes.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Shamelessly allwoing myself to rerail this thread back from pronounciation and representation thoughts...

What happens, if some other civ gets somehow hold of a Nau?

This should be possible in three cases: English Seadog UU use, recruiting it as a suzerain of a CS having a Portugese master in the past (who upgraded that CS Galleys to a Nau) and of course the Barabarian mode without Portugal activated.

Can they use the Feitoria building ability and if so, where? To my understanding, you shouldn't be able to boost yourself that way and you will not profit via trade routes from Feitorias you built elsewhere (as you lack the ability)...but you can at least pamper a CS you like this way. And - in theory - this could be a way how even Portugal could end up with this UI in their territory (not in case of Barb-mode use causing it, of course). Not that you normally want to boost them that way (though strategic tile blocking could be a reason). Or a MP team between England and Portugal "cooperating"...

 

[fy00sh]

Shamelessly allwoing myself to rerail this thread back from pronounciation and representation thoughts...

What happens, if some other civ gets somehow hold of a Nau?

This should be possible in three cases: English Seadog UU use, recruiting it as a suzerain of a CS having a Portugese master in the past (who upgraded that CS Galleys to a Nau) and of course the Barabarian mode without Portugal activated.

Can they use the Feitoria building ability and if so, where? To my understanding, you shouldn't be able to boost yourself that way and you will not profit via trade routes from Feitorias you built elsewhere (as you lack the ability)...but you can at least pamper a CS you like this way. And - in theory - this could be a way how even Portugal could end up with this UI in their territory (not in case of Barb-mode use causing it, of course). Not that you normally want to boost them that way (though strategic tile blocking could be a reason). Or a MP team between England and Portugal "cooperating"...

I'm guessing it won't be allowed as the Feitoria is also a Portuguese UI, but I'm not sure. The city state and barbarian clans mode methods ought to also work for the Māori Toa and the Roman Legion, so maybe someone can confirm if this allows the AI, or a player of a different civ, to build Pās or Roman Forts. The Pās would be obvious, whereas the Roman Forts can only be distinguished IIRC from reading the tooltip and/or seeing if they give you the ballistics eureka (only regular forts do this).
Also, now I'm wondering if Poland can also culture bomb tiles with Roman Forts. Probably not, but it'd be cool!

 

[Ticio]

YES! What a civ!

Even better off than I expected!


1) Trade routes yields based on %??
2) Extra length for maritime trade routes??


I cannot be happier, this one for sure is now my favorite civ in the entire game. So fitting to my preferred gameplay style!

Everything is superb. My only complaints are insignificants:

1) The UU being a nao and not a caravel (as it was a Portuguese invention). They could have done a "Caravela redonda" for example.
2) no bonus for placing or doing trade with other continents, but the actual bonuses are so fun that I prefer what they decided! (With the inability to trade with inland cities, a perfect malus).

An excellent Civ that looks insanely fun to play, my favorite in the whole NFP!


P.S: I being asking for a GP able to double trade routes lengths. Imagine that this come to be a reality, Portugal would benefit a lot as his bonus is 50% trade route length for maritime. Cof cof

Yeah, this might be the first time I actually consider it worth building.

Why so much hate for the Venetian arsenal... I adore this wonder! saves a lot of production… It also becomes insane when using Victor and the promotion ability,
You can produce a fleet of level 2 with 2 different promotions with just one ship production!

Yeah, that's gonna be a must-build wonder for them...and basically only them.

I always thought that it was a very strong wonder for Norway, England, Phoenicia and Spain.

Norway = gives you the ability to expand your fleet, what allows you to pillage faster. (It is true that it comes a little late).

England = Extra Seadogs! That you can make in fleets to gain power of conversion against other ships (as they are stronger).

Phoenicia = making faster Birremes that helps you protect your trade routes.

Spain = Probably the most beneficed, as they can produce armadas with their bonus but lack the seaport to reduce the production lost. Venetian arsenal allows them to produce these armadas as a much lower production cost.

Now, Portugal is up there too. I think VA is a game changer for Portugal and Spain and they will fight for it!

 

[raen]

YES! What a civ!

Even better off than I expected!


1) Trade routes yields based on %??
2) Extra length for maritime trade routes??


I cannot be happier, this one for sure is now my favorite civ in the entire game. So fitting to my preferred gameplay style!

Everything is superb. My only complaints are insignificants:

1) The UU being a nao and not a caravel (as it was a Portuguese invention). They could have done a "Caravela redonda" for example.
2) no bonus for placing or doing trade with other continents, but the actual bonuses are so fun that I prefer what they decided! (With the inability to trade with inland cities, a perfect malus).

An excellent Civ that looks insanely fun to play, my favorite in the whole NFP!


P.S: I being asking for a GP able to double trade routes lengths. Imagine that this come to be a reality, Portugal would benefit a lot as his bonus is 50% trade route length for maritime. Cof cof

Also think is super, always tried to aim costal Cities and maritime trade routes with my mod, looking forward to see how it is implemented.

As for Caravela redonda and such I will probably adapt my mod to make it available

 

[Linklite]

Why so much hate for the Venetian arsenal... I adore this wonder! saves a lot of production… It also becomes insane when using Victor and the promotion ability,
You can produce a fleet of level 2 with 2 different promotions with just one ship production!



I always thought that it was a very strong wonder for Norway, England, Phoenicia and Spain.

Norway = gives you the ability to expand your fleet, what allows you to pillage faster. (It is true that it comes a little late).

England = Extra Seadogs! That you can make in fleets to gain power of conversion against other ships (as they are stronger).

Phoenicia = making faster Birremes that helps you protect your trade routes.

Spain = Probably the most beneficed, as they can produce armadas with their bonus but lack the seaport to reduce the production lost. Venetian arsenal allows them to produce these armadas as a much lower production cost.

Now, Portugal is up there too. I think VA is a game changer for Portugal and Spain and they will fight for it!

I guess it really depends on how naval the game is. The problem is opportunity cost and applicability.

When it first unlocks, that's a lot of production and you have to be making several ships in order to recoup the production - something that may or may not happen. If it were that, it would probably still be worth it simply because, but it's not. It's also at a time when production is sorely needed for improving cities (building districts, buildings, settlers, Wonders, etc). By the time I'm interested in a large fleet, my gold supply is doing really well and I'm looking for things to buy with it because my army is already built, and a navy is a prime target. Why use production when my gold is sitting there doing nothing?

The other issue is need...I find the AI doesn't build fleets. I had a splintered fractal map (I wanted lots of smaller islands for Dido) and despite having quite a few ships roaming the seas and going for a Dom, I only hand 5 or so naval battles against single units. Why do I want a massive, expensive navy if it's just dealing with the occasional Barb and privateer? Ships have long range anyway, so just have a few dotted aaround and they can deal with it.

I'll often build the VA, but usually when I have a down period of construction later when my production outraces things to build so I go on a Wonder building spree. It's never a high priority. Maybe it will.be Portugal, those naus have a useful ability, so building tons of them might well be useful. In most cases, itmjust gets left on the shelf until I have a city with nothing better to build.

 

[Zaarin]

Why so much hate for the Venetian arsenal... I adore this wonder! saves a lot of production…

Or it would if I ever built more than a single Caravel to go explore the world once I hit Cartography.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Why so much hate for the Venetian arsenal... I adore this wonder! saves a lot of production… It also becomes insane when using Victor and the promotion ability,
You can produce a fleet of level 2 with 2 different promotions with just one ship production!



I always thought that it was a very strong wonder for Norway, England, Phoenicia and Spain.

Norway = gives you the ability to expand your fleet, what allows you to pillage faster. (It is true that it comes a little late).

England = Extra Seadogs! That you can make in fleets to gain power of conversion against other ships (as they are stronger).

Phoenicia = making faster Birremes that helps you protect your trade routes.

Spain = Probably the most beneficed, as they can produce armadas with their bonus but lack the seaport to reduce the production lost. Venetian arsenal allows them to produce these armadas as a much lower production cost.

Now, Portugal is up there too. I think VA is a game changer for Portugal and Spain and they will fight for it!

England's Seadogs aren't worth building a lot of because other civs generally don't create huge navies.

Phoenicia's bireme is already obsolete or close to it when the Arsenal is available.

It's not worth building the Arsenal just for a handful of units because its production cost is worth a large number of caravels.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

This fits Portugal well. except that Nau replaces caravel (and thus melee ships). IN TRUTH it has capabilities to evaporate local South and Southeast Asian fleets without taking any casaulties. this ability means Nau should replace Frigates

@raen will explain more.

Also think is super, always tried to aim costal Cities and maritime trade routes with my mod, looking forward to see how it is implemented.

As for Caravela redonda and such I will probably adapt my mod to make it available

Actually Portuguese used Caravels in tandem with Naus rather than replacements (particularly in their Spice trade routes). Where Naus (including Manowar variants) were flagships, caravels were cruisers.

 

[Conquistador_514]

When does the update go live ? Is The Portugal AI going to be able to use Nau's properly or just as a melee unit ? Why was the pronunciation of Portugal and their king so offensively wrong ? Why doesn't Portugal get a a combat bonus against Muslim civilizations ?

 

[Henri Christophe]

When does the update go live ? Is The Portugal AI going to be able to use Nau's properly or just as a melee unit ? Why was the pronunciation of Portugal and their king so offensively wrong ? Why doesn't Portugal get a a combat bonus against Muslim civilizations ?

Wrong pronunciations are very sexy XD

 

[fy00sh]

When does the update go live ? Is The Portugal AI going to be able to use Nau's properly or just as a melee unit ? Why was the pronunciation of Portugal and their king so offensively wrong ? Why doesn't Portugal get a a combat bonus against Muslim civilizations ?

1. Update will go live March 25. Pretty sure it'll be at noon EST but I'm not as sure about that.
2. I have very low hopes for the AI properly placing feitorias
3. They were trying to use authentic Portuguese pronunciations, but according to this tweet, they ended up using the worst takes pronunciationwise. Tho I think even if they used the best takes, it still would've been bad, since they're trying to approximate Portuguese pronunciations even when there's agreed upon pronunciations for these words in English already.
4. It really wouldn't make sense for Portugal to specifically have a combat strength bonus against just Mansa Musa, Suleiman, and Saladin. Whatever historical advantage they may or may not have had (I'm not a big history buff) might be better represented in-game by Portugal taking a science lead over them, or Portugal slotting in the Wars of Religion policy card, or something else maybe, again idk what this historical advantage was that they had against Muslim nations. In any case, Civ is supposed to be a game of what-ifs, so it should be open to the possibility of, say, Suleiman converting Portugal to Islam and then the two of them entering into a cultural alliance, or something like that. It'd be like America getting a combat strength bonus against specifically the Cree, instead of against any other civ on their home continent. It'd make the ability play worse gameplaywise in 99.9999% of games, it'd focus less on the actual flavor of America manifesting their destiny on whoever they share a continent with and more on America beating up specifically Native Americans, even if in the world map you rolled they're on the other side of the world with little to no land even worth conquering.