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Portugal

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 1, 2015.

  1. thecraftybee

    thecraftybee Warlord

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    I've recently rolled Portugal and I've enjoyed the Feitorias, and the trade route mechanics that come with them. Overall, I think the mechanics synchronise well, but it lacks power and could do with a boost. The UA part of the package I find the most underwhelming. Admittedly, I'm getting quite a few GG/GA from them, but the yields side of it is poor. The mechanic is much more preferable to the Ottoman yields on completion version, but could still do with a boost. Either add an additional yield (preferably culture as I find Portugal really culture light) or boost it by 33%/50%.

    The Feitorias could do with some UI help too. I play with EUI and I know with Austria I get a little icon on the right hand side next to each CS with which I'm Diplomatically Married. Is there any way to have this ported over to Portugal too so I can see at a glance who has and who needs a Feitoria. Also, can the CS or other AI pillage and/or destroy my Feitorias by building over them? I'd also love to see Feitorias having the canal-like ability that you get from Forts that someone above mentioned.

    As a Civ that feels totally depending on the sea with a naval UU and a coastal UI, I think that it needs to really dominate a sea start even more. If it is do be a sea dominant Civ, I think it needs to up its ante and double (increase its power over the ocean) or quit (and become more generic). I prefer the first option. At the moment, I feel it is lags both England and Netherlands on a sea start. Either give it an extra trade route at every other era (representing or make the Feitoria's boost all coastal tiles even more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
  2. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    Spoiler :


    I hate the same tech which ups Feitoria Production also obsoletes Naus (and how CS Feitorias established by them can be removed by resources appearing later on without a way to restore). So you get stuck in a limbo where you want to rush it ASAP and hold it over the last at the same time.
    I don't get what style of playing it expects, bonus production and food is nice, but won't turn a capital into a superpower (especially in light of gambling with resources, which basically removes any long-term planning), so it's not exactly a tall empire. Nau spam requires a lot of cities too, due to the military cap, but TR to Feitorias won't help much outside of a single city with all TR bonuses stacked up. I guess Feitorias themselves are kinda nice, having several 5g5p tiles on a coastal cities is a huge boon to them, but the situations like in the image are infuriating. And UA giving gold, science and admiral/GG points in peacetime, but that again falls off on a big empire.
    In the end, Portugalia have bonuses here and there, but they will only mean anything if the stars align properly. No wonder AI underperforms while playing as them as they lack the focus, Naus aren't even great UU in terms of fighting capability either.
     
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  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Actually, I'm pretty sure the nau-based Feitoria (the ones that you use in city-state territories) can't spawn on resources, hidden or not. As for your current screenshot, yes, sometimes coal or oil show up and mess up your improvement-placement, but that's kinda the same way for all civs with unique improvements.
     
  4. Takagi Hiro

    Takagi Hiro Prince

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    Honestly, I find Portugal underwhelming. I've wanted to like them, but I just can't. When I compare them to other civs, Portugal's stuff just looks terrible. I THINK Tradition is what you should choose for them, playing tall and small with your trade routes making you a science runaway, but that's just theory. I usually quit my Portugal games because they're so damn... weak (and heavily reliant on RNG/strong early game... i.e. Petra, Colossus, Great Lighthouse). Hell, adding an extra trade route to them, perhaps granting a free one at Sailing, could remove some of the sting.
     
  5. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    I agree with Portugal being weak. And what is worse - they are not fun! And that makes me sad, as I always loved playing Portugal trading empire in most strategic games (EU4 at early patches made Portugal lots of fun). Why I believe Portugal is weak?

    UA is underwhelming. Still. Despite boosts. +4:c5science: is good, +4 :c5gold: is weak, +4 :c5capital: (why is there no Great Admiral icon?!?) is crap. Especially GAP is useless. If you go wide this bonus is just a little something something. If you go tall, that +4 :c5science: scaling is ok, but still, not exceptional. UB and UU come late. Very late. Not by the time game is decided, but at time when there are strong and weak empires. And they are not game changers. Not even close! And before you hit Feitoria upgrade, you don't get any :c5culture: bonuses as a civ. And :c5culture: is most important!

    Maybe I don't know how to play, but I think everything was written above - this civ is average - they don't have any path written, which would be good if they were overall good civ (like pre-nerf Poland), but they are not. I would give them unit spawn upon finishing trade route (sea for sea route, land for land route). Maybe that would help. At least a little.
     
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  6. Takagi Hiro

    Takagi Hiro Prince

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    Anything would be good at this point...
     
  7. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Not sure about how strong or weak Portugal is, haven't played much, but i think that it should be possible to build feitoria in city-states that are in the middle of a continent. I understand taht it is a bit wrong historically etc, but as of now Portugal is singificantly weaker on Pangea compared to Archipelago, thats wrong.
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Most people I forced to play Portugal back during my crusade said they enjoyed the civ and felt they were deceptively strong, and that was back when the UA provided +2 Science/Gold/GPP.

    Also I personally don't think tradition is the way to go with Portugal, they want to expand, which would lean you towards Authority or possibly Progress (if you can actually get away with it).
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Saw the thread and started as Portugal, I like it so far. Get a caravan quickly and it provides a lot of gold. I don't quite understand the "when a trade unit moves" thing, seems like it basically just per turn, I'm guessing occasionally the trade unit will skip a movement or something? The science is actually a lot, comparable to Korea at most parts of the game. I went tradition tall to try and maximize the trade route bonus, I can see the appeal of progress
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The UA is deceptively powerful. You can largely delay any and all science buildings in favor of trade. You'll also never hurt for free luxuries (admiral) and citadels (generals).
     
  11. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    Umm... Matter of opinion of course, but before renaissance you have 4 guaranteed TR (trade, sailing, currency, compass), so unless you get Petra (possible but circumstancial on Emperor+) or Colossus (can't remember last time I got it and if you want to beeline to Colossus, you have to skip sailing, meaning you lose one TR) - that is 4:c5science: in ancient, 12:c5science: in classical and 32:c5science: when you get compass (2*16:c5science: - scaling with era right?). And same amount of :c5gold:. And 2 GG and GA.

    That's hardly powerful and blocks you from going wide if - as you say - you want to delay science buildings, because those :c5science: will be even less meaningful the more cities you have.
     
  12. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Why wide? The UA and UU do not scale with empire size - raw yields for the former and limited number of CSes to Feitoria for the later. The UI is more or less neutral.

    I play them wide too, but only because their bonuses are ordinary -and very late- therefore I feel I need to be aggressive to get anything done.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    The science-bonuses makes wide gameplay easier to get away with and the power of the UI makes never cities catch up quickly enough to not be a big drain on your empire. I also personally think that the UU is pretty size neutral, yeah sure the yields received would be better concentrated if you're not wide but bonus yields from the UU allows for bigger cities than a normal wide environment.

    That's how I figure it anyways.
     
  14. Democ

    Democ Chieftain

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    Hey hi ! I'm very new to this forum and still discovering the Vox populi mod , but I have played quite a lot even for civ standards with another mod oriented toward competitive civ V ( the nq mod not to say its name ) and also the ol' vanilla civ 5 when I was young and unaware of the existence of the modding community.

    I read a few of those discussions about balancing the civs after I first play because I like to compare what I understood and what is the general opinion on the subject , if we consider that a thing that exist.


    It is a hard task to try and balance a civ so that humans and AI could do well with it no matter the map size and type and I like so much what you did that I felt the need to register and say it.


    This civ is a very good civ to start with when you begin with Vox Populi imo , I was even thinking it would be considered "op " regarding the way they deal with happiness.


    The smaller the map the better the portuguese in my mind , since there will be more variety of ressources available only to you via the absurd number of great admiral that you can create.

    It will also empower the great general , as if you get 8 9 of them while being peacefull before renaisssance ( so you are most likely to get more ) and you plant citadels all around your land you

    will gain a more significant portion of the map total land ( and ressources and control of chokepoint) , you can really create so many that planting a citadel , removing it and planting one a tile

    aside don't feel like such a loss and useless move and allow you to steal stuff to others in a manifest destiny way.

    And the number of admiral/general per city will be higher.


    Typically I'd make 3 cities on a small map 6 players pangea or fractal , the less ressources on the map , the better you'd find yourself in compared to the others. With only 3 cities the bonus yield from the roads compared to what is needed for a tech with only twice the % modifier for city is VERY strong, it produces more science than the total city output for the early ages.



    I found going autorithy is fun as you can act like a total jerk with your close neighbours ( those that will end up vassalized ) and taunt them to war so they crash on your citadels , giving you a steady stream of easy culture.

    Here again with only 3 cities the culture yield per unit is stronger compared to the culture needed for a policy than if you were on 4 7 or 10 cities which is pretty much the max you can settle on a 6 player map ( usually 40/60 cities including city state at the end for the whole world).

    I found that to work pretty ok on emperor and immortal , I have not tried it in deity as i don't feel confident enough yet.



    This in my newbie mind is a lot of margin of manoeuvre as the citadels increase you army cap a lot with 2 or 3 citadels per city making it easy to send troops abroad once you are quite fed.

    Other thing thanks to the flat happiness you get , you are able to focus full prod or food in your cities , even if that creates a lot of unhapiness from illiteracy or boredom or poverty or even famine when you try choping 1 turn of those wonders. It could enable you to skip the buildings like markets and library and even walls and baracks sometimes and just tank the unhappinness with global rather than local basically soften the initiation to the new happiness system.


    Culture is what I aim at in early game with portugal as they have some sort of passive boost for science once the trade routes are set up, and you set them up earlier than with other civ so you will have the gold going earlier than them , and if you dont well you have admirals to take the gold of the far away people as your neighbours will hate you sometimes ^^

    Pantheon like God of all creation works to emphasize the global happiness so you can start trading very early on your ressources and doing so tricks AI into dependance upon you for their early happiness , it gives you diplomatic leverage this way and gives enough culture with 3 cities to unlock authority at a reasonable pace.


    I think this would prepare portugal to shine in the late medival early renaissance.

    You have excess gold , excess units supply , excess happiness and good science that will scale with very few further investment, everything to make conquest very appealing , you have the luck to be able to pick your target , and be very proactive rather than resilient at this point.

    Pick a good capital for monopoly , a religious city , a potential cultural runaway , the city that host petra ,a city state to liberate or the guy who stole your colossus , that reward exploration, and at this point you get the nau and some feitorias in your own land if you are lukcy because it cleary won't define your settlement patern it's just a boost not core.




    Naus are very strong if you play authority i'd call them Dromon sinkers if you get the picture , it really feels like harvesting culture , you can basically upgrade any trireme for free , as you will get the cash back once you sell some goods, if on top of that you are building some , you can buy 1 for 1 you build or close as they come cheap with only 3 city the gold yield from the goods are higher compared to the price of a Nau ( at this point i'm not sure how the tech impacts the cost so maybie they appear cheap because i usually have tech lead at this point at least in thoseareas of the tech tree )

    Even if they die and cannot really take cities alone they are a trade gold for culture which ranks from good to crucial if you cannot steal a good religion / monopolies like 10 % culture , prod ,gold even science or growth are those i aim at to prepare the expansion.

    They are melee unit with a lot of strengh compared to the units on the ground at this era 30 melee str for 161 hammers while Knight are 25 for 202 and lancers 35 foor 353, this makes your army score jump quite a bit and create opportunity for peaceful vassal.

    Worth mentionning , it is very fun to feel like you unleash the fleet and see it double in size a few a times in a row.



    Feitorias are nice now with the food and production they provide when you trade with an allied city states that has one , it's a strengh late game for Portugal , and it synergizes pretty well with

    the Corporations I like Firaxite for the 20% on buildings and the protection against pillaging because those are safe bonus even if you can't spread well your corporation because your vassals are too small , on small map you have more trade routes than cities , and also more trade routes than total number of city state making trade routes and civ that rely on them more powerfull.

    The culture from statecraft based on the number of spy to increase it in your capital scales with the number of total city state and is therefore LOWER on small map than on bigger map , that is the weak part of it but I have read that there is a discussion about the scaling of statecraft for wide empire , so who knows ^^.

    oh yeah I thought the markets exchange policy would give the monopoly bonus , and was to double the number of trade route , sigh , no santa either after the finisher :(



    So for now my strat is aiming my conquest to fill that blanks on culture , but I don't go to the point where I add polynesia on the ai list if you see what I mean.



    Then all the 3 trees are open I think which is another strengh of portugal , its versatility , adaptability.


    Industry being my default one as i'm a gold addict and willing to have oversized city that creates unhappiness but are production powerhouse , the +1 happiness on luxury ressources proc on the admiral's ressources and is VERY strong on small map , it had reach 20 or 25 with only 7 8 cities. That allows you to rebuild infrascture in any order after conquest, preferably the production building first without the need of working the tiles the AI was working or face the famine / unhapiness. and of course the +2 roads . Diplo win

    Imperialism is obviously if you can push your mid game advantage further and achieve domination , having rivals civs being naval or coastal increase the likelyhood of imperialism play drastically.

    An rationalism is rationalism if eveything is fine , more science is always good i guess it depends on how you feel entertain if you have already crippled everyone and you will clearly be tech leader till the end but have not really good gears to speed up the late game , tech win with portugal is slow and painfull to my eyes as you dominate the others they won't be faster than you , but that doesn't make you fast for a bit. Or it could be the situation of the 1V1 at the end and you have more production and land than the other runaway but he has science advantage , so you adjust your pace. or maybie on bigger map to stay on-par with another distant empire that would follow the same curve as you , or if you have feelings and don't want to hurt your friendly trade partner of all time who is also the biggest threat for your hegemony , that would be weird after the early warfare and conquest , but who knows maybie your empire found widsom alongside the capture of the holy city and it leads to waves of pacifists in your land ^^


    For the Ideology Autocracy has Iron fist , Syndicalism , commerce raiders , tyrany , if you have potential of rebelious Vassals and / or city states dominance for military win


    Order has the crazy tourism boost if you can influence the world to order with your statecraft advantage and the crazy happiness you have , iron curtain , the cheaper gold purchase for buildings and 3 spies , ( so strong on small map ! )


    and Freedom has the two additionnal roads , transnationalism and the 4 free delegates

    Ideologies are not so important in my mind for portugal as they should use their might mid game and go from small to massive to a point where most humans would surrender , or maybie agree to sparethe world in two. I don't plan to have them accelerate on the late game but rather use short therms payback actions all in mid game and then stall and control.

    I know it's a long post that doesn't propose any changes but I really enjoyed playing portugal and wanted to share it, you are not rushing against clock in early game to take lots of land , you are not playing catch up in science early game , you can have a war you decide , and then have time to sit back and watch your empire getting magnificent without being forced to war till end as you can win diplo if you feel like sparing a few lives.

    They are really fun to play, thanks to all of you for making that happen .

    I read that this UA was proposed for Morrocco at some point , I wonder what has happened that puts it to Portugal so i will finish reading the other thread but I like it on Portugal !

    I hope it can be of some use IF there are changes to be made on them , they are very strong on small maps and despite being-terrain dependant , they have tools to grab the land they need , and the land they want.
     
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  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Welcome!

    A thoroughly analysis of Portugal. A thing you forgot to mention, Naus can make up to two feitorias, but otherwise well seen. Yes, I agree that Portugal is fun, even if it's not considered very strong. I remember an amazing map with 1 tile sea tongues, I had some sea tiles enhanced by three feitorias at the same time.

    May I suggest you try China next? It's quite unique and fun too.
     
  16. Democ

    Democ Chieftain

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    Thanks !

    Right and those feitorias gives a bit of vision so you can spot rival envoy sometimes !

    I wanted to take China as they seems to introduce totaly new mechanism new like Portugal , but i really hate Traditions starts , after reading the thread about China I realise I might have misunderstood them I will give them a try after I finish my Incas and my Mongols games I begin with inca because they are usually pretty much unspecific plus having a strong consistent military bonus , and mongol with the Ger and the whole new line of skirmisher cuirassier was my 1rst attempt at immortal with the mod , as i faced them twice with the inca and the portugal and seemed strong , they really are , 1rst immortal game is an ongoing bloodbath , I play a few game simultanously as sometimes i'm just fed with war , or fed up with math for peacefull building , so i switch games , i'll try to shape a strat with China
     
  17. Jakman217

    Jakman217 Chieftain

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    This coming active again raises a question for me. Why does their ability proc on movement and what makes it different than being added to the trade route itself? I'm curious as to what difference it makes cause they seem interchangeable to me.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Incas like it tall. That's why they settle on mountains :p
     
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  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    When the route ends, there is one turn where your trader is not moving. You miss the bonus that turn. This encourages sending your traders farther.
     
  20. Democ

    Democ Chieftain

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    Yes and it also seemed to me that the science from movement don't count into the city science production , not creating science happiness.

    my incas are very diligent , and ascetic , 9 cities in the classical era , but they do like it tall , that's why they are taking india and mongol's land ^^
     

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