Possible new civilization game: make our own!

[AncientOne]

Oh and Waldtroll reminded me with his Paradox Games talk, that another good feature of both Europa Universalis series and Civ 4 is that city conquest doesn't get you new territories.. you must demand conquered cities through diplomacy at the end of the war. I think perhaps your game should implement that too - would make conquest a bit more difficult and interesting.

 

[general-jcl]

". you must demand conquered cities through diplomacy at the end of the war. I think perhaps your game should implement that too - would make conquest a bit more difficult and interesting."Good idea but it's only adapted for ancient to XVIIIth warfare.

 

[Steph]

". you must demand conquered cities through diplomacy at the end of the war. I think perhaps your game should implement that too - would make conquest a bit more difficult and interesting."Good idea but it's only adapted for ancient to XVIIIth warfare.

Why? Did Napoleon go all of Austria, Prussia or Russia after he defeated them?
Did the coalition countries dismantled France?
Did the French and English got territories from Russia in the Crimean war?
What about the Franco-Prussian war? Germany did not get the whole of France.
Same for WWI... In fact one of the only counter example is WWII

 

[Mad Man]

What would be cool is if you have a create-a-mode (the smackdown games are a good example of what i'm talking about) this way people can add units/civs and leader heads with very little moding experience.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hey Stephane At what stage is your game currently?
Perhaps i can find the time to help with city graphics in the future
Also, are you familiar with FreeCiv? It is an analogous attempt to create a better civ2. Maybe you can get some ideas from there as well.

 

[general-jcl]

Why? Did Napoleon go all of Austria, Prussia or Russia after he defeated them?
Did the coalition countries dismantled France?
Did the French and English got territories from Russia in the Crimean war?
What about the Franco-Prussian war? Germany did not get the whole of France.
Same for WWI... In fact one of the only counter example is WWII

XIXth century is a mix between "old fashion war" and "modern warfare":
Napoleon annexed some minor countries and weakened some major nations.
Wars of the XXth are wars of annihilation. I think the system described above won't be suitable for XXth century wars.

 

[Steph]

Can you give me some example of war of annihilation, beside WWII, where countries of relatively similar tech level (not counting colonial wars between a colonial power and some spear throwing natives), where the loser was purely annexed instead of having to pay some reparation, or give some territory?

 

[WildWeazel]

American Civil War, for one. The Romans did a lot of that too.

 

[Steph]

Civil wars are special. You start with one civ, at the end it can be successull --> two civs, or the rebellion replaces the previous government, or unsucessfull, and we end with the same civ.
It's not the same as starting with two civs and one absorbing the other in a war.
And for Romans, they are not the best example of XXth century wars.

 

[Quinzy]

On that note, Civil War's would be fun to add in. Like if the happiness gets too low, there's a chance of a new civ coming out of the old civ?

 

[Taras Bulba]

I would love to help with whatever I could, but frankly, I don't think I'd be of much use besides ideas of what to have in the game. I will be following this thread with great interest

Just a few ideas I'd like to throw out there now (or reinforce)

• The concept of Civil wars would be cool (as Quinzy said)
• Colonies need to be better (as they actually hold territory, but don't produce as well)
• Production and Population need to be fixed. Not by shields/food on the tiles, but by industry, or something else (eg-cities like NYC with small land areas still have higher production and population rates)
• there should be special road intermediates, where maybe a dirt path has a rate of 2, a road has a rate of 3, and a railroad has a rate of 5 or something like that, but the option to have no rate at all.
• different types of mobilization. I've wanted this for a while. War Time mobilization only builds military units, but a Renaissance (or however you spell it correctly) would only build cultural improvements/double culture from all cities, and a Scientific Age would only build science improvements (eliminating the scientific great leader's ability)
• Scientific Great Leader: eliminate science age, make them obtainable through researching a tech first, but allow them to give you one tech free, or hurry research on one tech so you can research it in 1 turn, rather than rushing a building
• Military Great Leader: same as now in conquests, but give them back the ability to rush (certain) wonders
• add other types of leaders (i.e.-cultural leader, perhaps the only way to initiate a renaissance, or rush (certain) wonders
• Allow for units to become obsolete. I think its dumb that if allows me to build a rifleman in the Future Age when I have no resources to that city.
• Vassal states like in Civ IV (or an adaptation like that)
• Religions like in Civ IV (but adapted a bit, as I don't TOTALLY agree with Civ IVs portrayal of it)
• More options for what wonders can do for you

That's all I have off the top of my head right now, but I'm sure I'd be able to come up with plenty more

PS-I say leave conquests the way they are. However, change the effect a little bit, where instead of being offered "Raze the city" and "Capture the City" be offered "Occupy the city" where you can build what you want out of it with a bit of increased resistance (you'll need Military Police) but it takes the city away from the AI

 

[Waldtroll]

If you implent a system similar to HOI you could still complete annex a country if you conquered it completly.
Well, such a system would solve some oddities think of the following situation, france is allied with england and in war with germany, the germans camture some french towns, but then the english start a counterattack and recapture these formal french cities, wich now belong to england, so if the french want their cities back they have to attack england...

Well, another thing I would like to be different as it is in civ is the population growth, imho population growth souldn't be linked to food production directly.
Food should be something you can storage (dependent on technologie) and transport (dependent on technologie) your population consumes food to stay healthy/alive/happy while the population growth would depend on the health of your citizens, and some other things.

I also would like to see Production handeld another way. Production should be something that dosn't come from mines, but from workers who work in your cities (in forges/factories etc.) Mines would produce recources like iron, coal etc. Forests can produce wood etc. these things youl would need to build special buildings/units etc,
other things (e.G. oil) could also be neded to keep things (Tanks/Factories) running, and all these recources could be transported and traded.

 

[Kyriakos]

The imperialism games series is also a good source of ideas for your game

 

[Madmax51]

Can you give me some example of war of annihilation, beside WWII, where countries of relatively similar tech level (not counting colonial wars between a colonial power and some spear throwing natives), where the loser was purely annexed instead of having to pay some reparation, or give some territory?

Even in WWII this was not strictly true. When Nazi Germany conquered a country they, in most cases, annexed/occupied a portion of the country then set up a puppet government to run the rest of the country. In the case of Vichy France the government was still more or less neutral and had a degree of independence as long as it was not aiding the allies. It even had it's own token army, and still had most of the substantial French Fleet.

 

[Steph]

In WWII, the war was conducted until one side was completly beaten and invaded. In most war before that, a few major battles lead to a peace. That's a big difference.

 

[AncientOne]

Well, with the case of diplomatical city/territory annexation after the war, when someone conquers entire nation, there would be option to demand absolute surrender.. but perhaps also some way to just demand their total demilitarization and allowance of your military on their land.

 

[kairob]

I agree, if you have beeten them substantially you should be able to declare 'unconditional surrender', but this should be limited and rare, maybe making allies of the defeated enemy really hate you, and then it would only be useful if almost all major powers were involved (like WW2)...

I do like the idea of being able to set up autonomous states and puppet governments with limited freedom. Maybe like the way vassals and colonies work in civ 4, but with more flexibility in choosing which cities they get.

 

[Vuldacon]

Steph... This is a Great Endeavor and the Words "Difficult" and "Labor Intensive" come to mind immediately.

Many Good Ideas have been posted...

One Simple Point for now: I would like to see settings for Units that allow them to be built and upgraded as Unique One Of A Kind Units without the Need to Pre-place them and or set their Upgrades as "Leaders" in order to prevent more from being built.
If there is a One Of A Kind Unit that is suppose to continue to be a One Of A Kind Unit and it also Upgrades, the Upgrade must be set as a Leader in order to set the Unit as able to Upgrade and also Prevent the Unit from being Built.

This Unit could be labeled as "Unique Unit" in the Editor with the One Of a Kind Setting that would allow them to be built Once and Upgraded as they Remain a One Of A Kind Unit.

 

[Steph]

Just to let you know it's a serious project, some very preliminary screenshot

 

[Deth McBones]

Very neat looking screenshot, especially the coast.
Another thing to think about is multiple maps, or layers. I loved how CtP had the space layer above the regular terrain, that alone was so cool. Using that kind of layer system would allow fantasy mods to have an underground and sky, like ToT and, would give sci-fi mods a double zoom kind of system/galactic or planet/system/galactic view.
And about the conquests problem, perhaps the 'occupy' could be a stage between enemy controlled and player controlled, which would give the enemy some time to recapture their city with all the culture and improvements, replacing the resistance phase. Individual mods could change how long this period is, or a player could be prompted to actually annex the city, which would add financial burden and would anger the mother country. You could purportedly keep it occupied forever, or barely any time at all, or give it up to the mother country for cities they occupy, or even set up a puppet government. That's a whole lot, but it would be very cool.