Post Patch Naval unit ZOC affecting land units

[bryanb2007]

I noticed after the patch that a Barbarian Trieme on the coast exerted a ZOC onto the adjoining land hexes, and my scout that prevented that unit from moving 2 spaces.

1. Did anyone notice this pre-patch ?
2. This seems completely dumb, why would a naval unit exert a ZOC on land ?
3. Is it just me or is the way ZOC is currently implemented, buggy and non-deterministic. Often I am surprised when my movement is limited by a ZOC (for example moving out of ZOC and away from unit, as opposed to thru ZOC), and quite often AI units move thru my units ZOC with no penalties (often to capture a worker, or crush a non-melee unit).

Screen Shot Attached.

 

[AfterShafter]

Could be an effort to buff naval power, which doesn't seem like a totally fruitless endeavour. If not, they bunngered it up good.

 

[Pouakai]

Yes, it was in Pre-patch

 

[Napoleonbuff]

Yes, I ran into this a couple of times pre-patch when a barbarian camp was on a peninsula.

Also, I would definitely consider it realistic (e.g., when Napoleon first invaded Italy in 1796, he emphasized use of the inland mountain roads rather than the lower coastal roads in order to minimize the effect Nelson's raiding parties could have on the flow of supplies).

 

[NukeAJS]

This has been affecting me since the last patch (pre-latest --The one with the Inca and Spain). I'm assuming this was intended. As AfterShafter said, I always assumed this was by design to make navies' ability to affect the land (RE- more important parts of the globe)

 

[The_J]

Please check if the problem also appears in games started post patch.
I hope they have not reintroduced this bug again, it has been in Civ5 before the second last patch, i think (too lazy to look it up).

 

[Lanstro]

Yep I recall naval influence on land units being labelled a bug that was fixed in one of the earliest patches. Sounds like it's been re-introduced.

 

[bryanb2007]

Yep I recall naval influence on land units being labelled a bug that was fixed in one of the earliest patches. Sounds like it's been re-introduced.

I can confirm that it happens post patch.

 

[Pouakai]

Yep I recall naval influence on land units being labelled a bug that was fixed in one of the earliest patches. Sounds like it's been re-introduced.

No, they fixed the other way around. That patch fixed Land unit ZOC stopping naval units

 

[Kamamura]

Why is it dumb? Naval units have guns for shore bombardment, an area controlled by naval bombardment can be difficult to traverse for enemy units.

 

[bryanb2007]

Why is it dumb? Naval units have guns for shore bombardment, an area controlled by naval bombardment can be difficult to traverse for enemy units.

IMHO a ZOC reflects the ability of the enemy unit to attack your unit. Although a naval unit can bombard a land unit, it can not directly engage that land unit (by moving to the same tile and fighting a melee battle), and hence should not exert a ZOC upon land. The inverse is equally crazy, should my scout be able to exert a ZOC on that trireme ? If one, why not the other ? How about an archer ? should it exert a ZOC on a naval unit ?

If you are making an argument in terms of realism I find it hard to fathom why a Trireme can influence my squadron of scouts several miles inland. This kind of argument is pointless as this is a strategy game and not real life. Gameplay trumps realism.

In a practical sense this allows me create choke points with naval units, that would tie up non range land units. That have no ability to attack back.... just seems messy to me... and something that a computer AI is not likely to handle well.

My suggestion is:
A land melee unit should exert a ZOC on enemy land units on land tiles.
A naval unit should exert a ZOC on enemy naval units on sea tiles.
Other units should not exert a ZOC.

 

[Bibor]

No, they fixed the other way around. That patch fixed Land unit ZOC stopping naval units

Indeed that was the case. I don't think ships excerting ZOC on a coastal is a bug.

 

[Kamamura]

IMHO a ZOC reflects the ability of the enemy unit to attack your unit. Although a naval unit can bombard a land unit, it can not directly engage that land unit (by moving to the same tile and fighting a melee battle), and hence should not exert a ZOC upon land. The inverse is equally crazy, should my scout be able to exert a ZOC on that trireme ? If one, why not the other ? How about an archer ? should it exert a ZOC on a naval unit ?

If you are making an argument in terms of realism I find it hard to fathom why a Trireme can influence my squadron of scouts several miles inland. This kind of argument is pointless as this is a strategy game and not real life. Gameplay trumps realism.

In a practical sense this allows me create choke points with naval units, that would tie up non range land units. That have no ability to attack back.... just seems messy to me... and something that a computer AI is not likely to handle well.

My suggestion is:
A land melee unit should exert a ZOC on enemy land units on land tiles.
A naval unit should exert a ZOC on enemy naval units on sea tiles.
Other units should not exert a ZOC.

I disagree with you. Have you ever played an old board game called Diplomacy? It's greatly abstracted, but land and naval units can actually fight on coastal territories, since both can enter them.

I like naval units exerting ZOC on adjacent land squares - it reflects how powerful ships are. You must realize that since they can float, ships can wield firepower greatly surpassing anything a land unit could find practical to transport around. The only exception should be static artillery mounted in various fortresses.

 

[The_J]

I can confirm that it happens post patch.

Moderator Action: Moved to bug reports.

And savegame please.