[GS] Power Ranking the Civs (Gathering Storm)

[AsparustheSaiyan]

Maybe it's a difference in play styles, but Russia with ample tundra will bury Korea in all aspects including tech.
Maybe it's because I play on marathon, but going balls out Korea had to be lucky to finish by 1350 AD (pre GS) where Russia could finish by 600 AD. This is pure building and no war. A big part of the problem is Korea doesn't have the culture output to have many inspirations where Russia doesn't. Also Russia will have democracy while Korea will be barely in a medieval government. If you do not expand much and turtle with around 8 cities then yeah Korea will beat Russia, but Russia played balls out will have 40 or more cities on a huge map.

This is why Russia is my favourite civ and why I placed them in S tier. Their versatility is astonishing at times and you can go for any victory condition you want really well. GS has only helped them since faith as a currency has gotten more valuable.

I am going to redo my tier list at some point when I've had some more experience with GS but I doubt Russia's place will change in my opinion.

 

[Cherenkov]

Or weep in the corner, because Russia, Greece, and Kongo are snatching away all the early GWAMs Or a plethora of other civs that can build the Theatre district faster.

Sweden is super strong in midgame once QB kicks in, but calling them S tier is a bit of a stretch.

Thanks to the incompetent AI I can just trade diplomatic favor for the early GWAM's I missed Again putting Sweden on top... The only worry is Russia since he can spam Lavras super early and generate a lot of GWs.

This was a different game but as you can see...

CivilizationVI Diploforart

• Cherenkov
• Mar 26, 2019

]

 

[Softly]

Just played Hungary and wow, just wow. They are without a doubt on a tier of their own. Just hit turn 100 (standard speed Deity) and am up too 17 cities, only four of which I founded myself. I am not sure why everyone keeps saying they are "situational", you can always get at least one early suzerian using Reyna and the envoy from Mysticism. Does not really matter where the city state is positioned, 30 turns is more than enough time to conquer one or two civs when you take into account the +2 movement speed.

Pearl of the Danube is quite strong as well. It is situational when it comes to campuses and holy sites, but it is very easy to place commercial hubs. theater squares, government plazas and entertainment complexes across rivers. One of the strongest Civ Abilities in the game, and am honestly surprised they gave it to the Civ with the #1 leader ability in the game.

Honestly they need a major nerf, I don't think I'd be able to steamroll this hard with any other civ even on King. They should nerf the movement speed bonus to only apply for the first 10 turns after levying (similar to Persia). This way you could still get your units to the front line but it would be more difficult to steamroll once you got there. It would also make strategically positioned city states preferable to isolated ones, which makes for better game design from both a realism and strategic POV. The other change I would make is reduce the envoys gained when levying from +2 to +1. I understand it is frustrating to spend all of that gold only to have the units returned halfway through but that should be the risk you take. It should only be safe to levy a city state after you have a comfortable envoy lead. This would definitely weaken the Mysticism Envoy + Amani + Oligarchy + Rush Iron Working where you can freely steamroll the AI before they have a chance to get walls up.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Naturally since Russia is my favourite civ I'd love to know your opinion of them in GS.

Scythia in top tier now? Were they in top tier in your previous list? I can't remember. I imagine the resource requirement was quite nice to them though in GS.

I honestly think China has improved enough to be considered A tier now. Yes the crouching tiger and great wall still suck but there are so many classical and ancient era wonders now that even on higher difficulties you can now guarantee yourself a few. And an extra build charge automatically from the get go has always been pretty powerful.

Hope your studies are going well for you my dude!

Appreciate the warm wishes!

And sure, I'll expound a little bit. Not much has changed for Russia in Gathering Storm, and they're still as excellent as they've ever been. The new strategic resource system might benefit them, as having a lot of land to grab a lot of strategic resources rewards players more than it has before. Granted, this isn't too different from the previous system, but Russia might can field more power and more units if they're aggressively grabbing territory. If you're engaging in a lot of Theological Combat through your religious game, you might can get something out of Meenakshi Temple; Russia's faith gain allows them to actually use Gurus decently well, though this is more of a gimmick strategy. Outside of that, they're pretty much the same. Huge borders on founding is amazing, they make tundra viable, arguably the best faith gain outside of the Maori, can rush a Holy Site and get a Religion faster than anyone else, and they have a great Industrial Era unit. The only thing that works against Russia is that the Maori might have usurped their title as king of A-tier, but I'm still not certain.

As for Scythia, I had them as the absolute best in the game pre-nerf, but after the (entirely justified) nerf to Killer of Cyrus, I had to bump them down a bit to A-tier in R&F. They were still the best Civ in the game at one-on-one combat, but they had a very specific timing push in the Classical Era based on a unit type that isn't relevant in the Medieval Era, meaning that Scythia hits you really hard with Horsemen and then falls off for a bit. However, now that Coursers are in the game, light cavalry are relevant in the Medieval Era, meaning that Scythia's small window of aggression is now much larger than it was previously. Granted, just because of Killer of Cyrus, it's hard to say that Tomyris couldn't be aggressive past that point, but now she can actually play to her strengths. This single change is in my opinion enough to bring her back up to S-tier.

China, I keep reevaluating in my head. I previously thought Dynastic Cycles was great, then I thought it was mediocre, and after my latest run through with them, I think is good, but in a measured way. I also actually had a good experience with the Great Wall too, I hesitate to call it "good" but it's a far cry from the Chateau (which is abysmally bad). I think they're just good, not great, but good.

 

[acluewithout]

Another lame thing about industrial zones is that you’d want to build them in cities that don’t have many hills for mines or don’t have quarries. You know, so you can actually get the city to have decent production.

But you can’t do that. They get their production from mines and quarries. So you can only build them in cities which are already fine in production.

Brilliant.

I don’t agree. I think the idea is that IZs are primarily meant to make productive cities more productive., not make weak cities not weak.

(Admittedly, that does raise the question, what should I build in low production cities? My solution is a CH or Harbour, a victory District, and then just run projects...)

(On a similar note, I think various suggestions and mods to have IZs get adjacency from Lubermills are equally wrong headed. Lumber Mills are intentionally not as strong as mines and quarries. Situationally, Lumber Mills can give a good yield. But mostly I think they're intended as a source of hammers for those that aren't chopping woods (for whatever reason).)

((On a less similar note, you could almost have a list of Civs that are rubbish but that, with either a very small tweak, or small change to underlying mechanics, would be absolutely belter. Any Civs that leverage IZs in particular are just waiting for IZs, resource, power etc. to get tuned. Likewise, there’s a bunch of Civs now that would benefit from Forts not sucking - Rome, Maori, China, Poland. And a bunch of Civs that would benefit from colonial cities being more valuable.))

(((On an even less similar note, I really don't know how one can really figure out where Maori or Mali fit in the tiers. To me, they feel more like scenarios than Civs. But yeah, Maori currently feel like the Korea of Culture plus super melee units plus all the boats. Just nuts.)))

... England is just aggressively underwhelming in general...

Hilarious. Well done Sir. Well done.

Appreciate the warm wishes!

And sure, I'll expound a little bit. Not much has changed for Russia in Gathering Storm, and they're still as excellent as they've ever been. The new strategic resource system might benefit them, as having a lot of land to grab a lot of strategic resources rewards players more than it has before. Granted, this isn't too different from the previous system, but Russia might can field more power and more units if they're aggressively grabbing territory. If you're engaging in a lot of Theological Combat through your religious game, you might can get something out of Meenakshi Temple; Russia's faith gain allows them to actually use Gurus decently well, though this is more of a gimmick strategy. Outside of that, they're pretty much the same. Huge borders on founding is amazing, they make tundra viable, arguably the best faith gain outside of the Maori, can rush a Holy Site and get a Religion faster than anyone else, and they have a great Industrial Era unit. The only thing that works against Russia is that the Maori might have usurped their title as king of A-tier, but I'm still not certain.

As for Scythia, I had them as the absolute best in the game pre-nerf, but after the (entirely justified) nerf to Killer of Cyrus, I had to bump them down a bit to A-tier in R&F. They were still the best Civ in the game at one-on-one combat, but they had a very specific timing push in the Classical Era based on a unit type that isn't relevant in the Medieval Era, meaning that Scythia hits you really hard with Horsemen and then falls off for a bit. However, now that Coursers are in the game, light cavalry are relevant in the Medieval Era, meaning that Scythia's small window of aggression is now much larger than it was previously. Granted, just because of Killer of Cyrus, it's hard to say that Tomyris couldn't be aggressive past that point, but now she can actually play to her strengths. This single change is in my opinion enough to bring her back up to S-tier.

China, I keep reevaluating in my head. I previously thought Dynastic Cycles was great, then I thought it was mediocre, and after my latest run through with them, I think is good, but in a measured way. I also actually had a good experience with the Great Wall too, I hesitate to call it "good" but it's a far cry from the Chateau (which is abysmally bad). I think they're just good, not great, but good.

I’d agree with all that. Sythia are in a really good place now.

China are a unique Civ, in that their best ability is getting early wonders, so their ranking really comes from how you rank said early wonders. Being able to just grab TOA, Great Bath etc. is really strong. Other abilities are “fine”, but quite passive.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

China getting a flat desert tile early makes all the difference.

I did a test and Germany will have three times or more as much production in their capital as Korea in the same stage of the game. Korea is S tier unless they are attacked by a wet paper bag in which case they won't be able to punch their way out.

 

[Pietato]

China getting a flat desert tile early makes all the difference.

I did a test and Germany will have three times or more as much production in their capital as Korea in the same stage of the game. Korea is S tier unless they are attacked by a wet paper bag in which case they won't be able to punch their way out.

Hard to take anything you say seriously...

 

[acluewithout]

China getting a flat desert tile early makes all the difference.

I did a test and Germany will have three times or more as much production in their capital as Korea in the same stage of the game. Korea is S tier unless they are attacked by a wet paper bag in which case they won't be able to punch their way out.

I assume you’re talking about Pyramids.

Pyramids and China do synergise really well. You can rush them easily, which further buffs your builders, which lets you then grab more early wonders. It’s like getting Serfdom in the Classical Era.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

I assume you’re talking about Pyramids.

Pyramids and China do synergise really well. You can rush them easily, which further buffs your builders, which lets you then grab more early wonders. It’s like getting Serfdom in the Classical Era.

You get it, but Pietato does not.

 

[Pietato]

You get it, but Pietato does not.

I get that you have no idea what you are talking about, and instead make nonsensical statements like 'Germany done had more production than Korea at one point derpderp' and 'Korea is overtaken in science by the power of magic'.

Seriously, this is getting old.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

I get that you have no idea what you are talking about, and instead make nonsensical statements like 'Germany done had more production than Korea at one point derpderp' and 'Korea is overtaken in science by the power of magic'.

Seriously, this is getting old.

Seriously why do you feel the need to get personal? I laid out some evidence as to why Korea is over-rated and you lay into me with insults. I don't go completely into detail because I feel that any player who really knows how to play can fill in the blanks.

 

[AsparustheSaiyan]

I get that you have no idea what you are talking about, and instead make nonsensical statements like 'Germany done had more production than Korea at one point derpderp' and 'Korea is overtaken in science by the power of magic'.

Seriously, this is getting old.

Ok guys let's keep this civil. We are all allowed our opinions after all. This is just a game we are talking about. There are arguments to be made for most of the civs in the game. That's why these tier lists are mostly based off personal experiences with each civ after all. If you think that Korea is better than most than great! all power too you. If you don't then that's fine too!

There's no need to devolve into a childish argument and insult each others opinions. We are entitled to them.

Appreciate the warm wishes!

And sure, I'll expound a little bit. Not much has changed for Russia in Gathering Storm, and they're still as excellent as they've ever been. The new strategic resource system might benefit them, as having a lot of land to grab a lot of strategic resources rewards players more than it has before. Granted, this isn't too different from the previous system, but Russia might can field more power and more units if they're aggressively grabbing territory. If you're engaging in a lot of Theological Combat through your religious game, you might can get something out of Meenakshi Temple; Russia's faith gain allows them to actually use Gurus decently well, though this is more of a gimmick strategy. Outside of that, they're pretty much the same. Huge borders on founding is amazing, they make tundra viable, arguably the best faith gain outside of the Maori, can rush a Holy Site and get a Religion faster than anyone else, and they have a great Industrial Era unit. The only thing that works against Russia is that the Maori might have usurped their title as king of A-tier, but I'm still not certain.

As for Scythia, I had them as the absolute best in the game pre-nerf, but after the (entirely justified) nerf to Killer of Cyrus, I had to bump them down a bit to A-tier in R&F. They were still the best Civ in the game at one-on-one combat, but they had a very specific timing push in the Classical Era based on a unit type that isn't relevant in the Medieval Era, meaning that Scythia hits you really hard with Horsemen and then falls off for a bit. However, now that Coursers are in the game, light cavalry are relevant in the Medieval Era, meaning that Scythia's small window of aggression is now much larger than it was previously. Granted, just because of Killer of Cyrus, it's hard to say that Tomyris couldn't be aggressive past that point, but now she can actually play to her strengths. This single change is in my opinion enough to bring her back up to S-tier.

China, I keep reevaluating in my head. I previously thought Dynastic Cycles was great, then I thought it was mediocre, and after my latest run through with them, I think is good, but in a measured way. I also actually had a good experience with the Great Wall too, I hesitate to call it "good" but it's a far cry from the Chateau (which is abysmally bad). I think they're just good, not great, but good.

Your welcome my friend!

Some are claiming Maori as the Gathering Storm Sumeria. What made you place them in A tier instead of S of you don't mind me asking?

 

[Disgustipated]

I am not sure why everyone keeps saying they are "situational"

Situational meaning we haven't had as much luck with Hungary as you. We either don't have city states near us (yes their position does matter), or the AI saves envoys and uses them to turn the city state against us. It's not pleasant facing down 20 units that were formerly your levied troops. Tell me how this is overpowered. Once you get Amanis last promotion this is less of an issue, which means you have to choose Amani first, but you fall behind in science not choosing Pingala. I had one game where I had no civs near me, and no one to attack for a very long time. I just built up peacefully, and I did enjoy pearl of the Danube quite a bit for this aspect.

 

[Pietato]

Ok guys let's keep this civil. We are all allowed our opinions after all. This is just a game we are talking about. There are arguments to be made for most of the civs in the game. That's why these tier lists are mostly based off personal experiences with each civ after all. If you think that Korea is better than most than great! all power too you. If you don't then that's fine too!

There's no need to devolve into a childish argument and insult each others opinions. We are entitled to them.

Uh huh. These are his 'opinions' on Korea:

Korea is the equivalent to Usain Bolt running a marathon. Big lead early, but you will start getting passed halfway through the race.

I did a test and Germany will have three times or more as much production in their capital as Korea in the same stage of the game. Korea is S tier unless they are attacked by a wet paper bag in which case they won't be able to punch their way out.

Nonsensical. Unless he starts providing facts, and not weird anecotes from his custom marathon games, I am going discount his 'opinion' on Korea.

 

[Sagax]

Not much has changed for Russia in Gathering Storm, and they're still as excellent as they've ever been

Kind of true in general, but just two words to add: Rock Bands.

I’ve been fighting an uphill battle pre-GS trying to convince people that Russia’s CV is at least on par with their RV, and you are really pigeonholing yourself by playing Russia solely for RV. With the introduction of Rock Bands, there is now a direct and reliable way to convert all that faith output into CV.

 

[AsparustheSaiyan]

Uh huh. These are his 'opinions' on Korea:







Nonsensical. Unless he starts providing facts, and not weird anecotes from his custom marathon games, I am going discount his 'opinion' on Korea.

That's perfectly fine. At the end of the day our opinions of the civs in the game are based on what we have seen and what we've experienced playing them.

For what it's worth. I agree with you that Korea, without outside influences are the single best science civ in the game. However, there are other factors to consider. Map generation, city states, AI declaring war on you, the number of cities you have... These all affect how much of any one yield you can get and if someone gets a better map/start/better city states it is perfectly possible for someone to overtake the science output of Korea.

But of course, if the conditions are ideal for Korea, then in pure science they can't beaten. I suppose my point is that despite how good they are at science to the point where I put them in God tier, they aren't unbeatable.

 

[AsparustheSaiyan]

Kind of true in general, but just two words to add: Rock Bands.

I’ve been fighting an uphill battle pre-GS trying to convince people that Russia’s CV is at least on par with their RV, and you are really pigeonholing yourself by playing Russia solely for RV. With the introduction of Rock Bands, there is now a direct and reliable way to convert all that faith output into CV.

Russia I think is probably now the 2nd best civ in the game now for CV. The only one I think beats them is Pericles. Religion and culture just work so well in Russia's favor and as you said, Rock Bands... \m/ (0.o.) \m/

 

[Archon_Wing]

Korea cannot have production issues; they have a hill bias lol. Literally the best bias in the game. (This is also why Greece is strong.... not that they need it).

Korea is vulnerable to being attacked early on, but so what? It's not like Scotland or Germany is that much better vs early rushes. (Germany can defend against CS's better; which is good.). And the Hwacha does a hell a lot more defending than the Highlander or U-boat. If you want to bring up how civs deal with pressure and teching, then Australia beats them all and hits them out of the ballpark.

Why does nobody ever bring up the fact Korea has little issue with culture either? They get culture per governor promotion. With the buff to Pingala, is a buff to Korea too!

If Korea has 3 Seowons with the 100% adjacency card, they have 24 science. What makes you think they even need a Seowon in every city; when some civs if they lack mountains, cannot match them with 5-6 campuses at times?

Finally, so what if they build their spaceship a bit slower? What is this? 2017? There's been 2 expansions. Are you really taking 100 turns to launch your spaceship? Because 10% more production just means you save 10 turns when it doesn't matter anymore. Do you believe Korea can't get a 10 turn research lead? lol.

BTW, China hurries space projects 10% faster at worst. Just saying.

 

[schondette]

Russia I think is probably now the 2nd best civ in the game now for CV. The only one I think beats them is Pericles. Religion and culture just work so well in Russia's favor and as you said, Rock Bands... \m/ (0.o.) \m/

Yeah Rock Bands are fun and games until the AI starts flooding your nation with there weak ass Cold Play nonsense and you can't actually do anything about it. . .

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Yeah Rock Bands are fun and games until the AI starts flooding your nation with there weak ass Cold Play nonsense and you can't actually do anything about it. . .

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense, but for the life of me all I can figure is some kind of policy card referencing oppression of the youth with a loyalty penalty.