Predator class

[Dianthus]

OK, I've got a couple of ideas. I've tried to list these in a way that they could be used to aid Open/Conquest as well as hinder Predator.

• Remove/Add traits
• Reduce/Increase starting gold
• Add/Remove starting units
• Add/Remove initial starting techs
• Change individual player difficulty (not sure what this does, but in the editor you can change the difficulty level for player 1 independently of the others. Maybe this can be used to change Player 1's production level?)
• Render some of the tiles around the start location unusable via pollution (for Predator)
• Add some roads around the start (for Open/Conquest)

 

[akots]

IMO, many ppls involved in this discussion greatly overestimate the skills and willingness to accept challenge for Predator players. As it stands now, about 10-15% ppls play on Predator. If this would be a serious handicap without possible advantages to compensate, there will be probably only SirPleb left as a Predator. As for me, I will quit playing it if it is indeed a serious hindrance like increased tech cost or build costs.

Lets consider this COTM/GOTm played on Monarch where Predator had unit support for AI increased to Emperor. Monarch to Emperor unit support is a huge difference indeed. AI gets a free spearman/pikeman in each city immediately after it is built and when it flips back to the AI. This means an extra free defender in all AI cities. Certainly, some ppls can say that this helps with leader farming for the predator ppls since they can slaughter more AI units. I suggest these ppls try for themselves. It immensely increases the difficulty of the game. Or take the COTM3 game (byzantines) for example. There on Predator India got 2 free defenders into each city that flipped and there were indeed very many flips in that game. Not mentioning barbarian hut locations so that to survive, many Predator ppls (including myself) had to let Indian warriors in to fight them and hence experienced early poorly prepared war with Gandhi.

Overall, I'm thinking hard each time which class to play. Sometimes playing Predator is very risky and can get you into a really big trouble at start or later on.

There is always an option of doing it like it was with Medal Play series which was having 3 games at 3 difficulty levels. I just want to ask: Do you seriously believe that Deity game is more easy than Emperor and Emperor more easy than Monarch?

Edited: If some ppls want a real challenge, there is always HOF and a multitude of recent SGs started on Sid. What is going on here as I see it that that a number of ppls who want to score better in GOTM without improving their skills want to create some handicap for those ppls who perform consistently better than them. No offense intended please. It is just an impression that I get from some posts.

 

[Dianthus]

If this would be a serious handicap without possible advantages to compensate, there will be probably only SirPleb left as a Predator.

And me. I've started playing predator, and will continue to do so as long as it exists, no matter what the player handicap/AI incentive.

Overall, I'm thinking hard each time which class to play. Sometimes playing Predator is very risky and can get you into a really big trouble at start or later on.

I guess we're approaching it differently. I'm after an exciting game first, then I try to get a good score.

 

[akots]

... I guess we're approaching it differently. I'm after an exciting game first, then I try to get a good score.

Nope, I'm looking for an exciting game as well. But there are other means to get an exciting game which I mentioned above.

Regarding score: I really don't care much except that GOTM is played for score. This is the goal of the game which is getting a good score. If you don't play GOTM for score, there is no point to play it at all IMHO. There are possibilities of imposing certain restriction like no Palace moves or RoP abuse but still the goal of the game stands.

 

[solenoozerec]

I just want to ask: Do you seriously believe that Deity game is more easy than Emperor and Emperor more easy than Monarch?

No. But if I want to go, for example, for diplo victory, I might get it faster on Emperor than on Monarch. Am I wrong?

I lost COTM3 playing conquest class, yet I never was getting techs at such rapid rate in other games on lower difficulty levels.

Anyway, I think that Ainwood listened to Megalou's (sorry if I spelled wrong) suggestion and went even further by increasing support unit from regent to emperor. I think it will increase the difference between open and predator too Is it good - I have no idea. But I am intrigued to see how many people will play predator and how it will effect their game play and score.

 

[Hannabir]

I don't like starting with only one trait on Predator, because (a) that makes the game too different from Open (not just harder, but goals will differ) and (b) it makes the civ you get less interesting.
Removing the two starting techs (or one of them) could be an option though IMHO.

For the Conquest class, perhaps extra knowledge of the map would be a nice bonus. Participants would learn the importance of picking a good starting tile without the decision being complicated by the need to find it first.

 

[akots]

No. But if I want to go, for example, for diplo victory, I might get it faster on Emperor than on Monarch. Am I wrong? ...

This is essentially equalized by Jason's score so not an issue.

 

[akots]

... I lost COTM3 playing conquest class, yet I never was getting techs at such rapid rate in other games on lower difficulty levels. ...

So all these techs did you no good?

 

[Mistfit]

This is essentially equalized by Jason's score so not an issue.

I disagree. If you are playing pred and I am playing open on the same game and you are able to get tech's quicker because of AI bonuses you are able to finish at a faster pace then I can. How is the jason score going to make a difference in that?

Of course I don't think the rules or the game should be change so take what I say with a big grain of salt.

 

[akots]

I disagree. If you are playing pred and I am playing open on the same game and you are able to get tech's quicker because of AI bonuses you are able to finish at a faster pace then I can. How is the jason score going to make a difference in that? ...

Wanna switch? I play Open and you play Predator and to see who is getting the techs faster and able to use it to your advantage... Please do not be confused with this.

I have not played the same game on Predator and Open and probably neither of ppls here did. That would be a nice comparison btw.

 

[AlanH]

I disagree. If you are playing pred and I am playing open on the same game and you are able to get tech's quicker because of AI bonuses you are able to finish at a faster pace then I can. How is the jason score going to make a difference in that?

The statement concerning Jason was referring to different difficulty levels, not player classes, and was a somewhat off topic reply to a somewhat off topic post. Predators don't play the whole game at a different difficulty level, they sometimes just get specific components set to those of a higher difficulty level.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I guess we're approaching it differently. I'm after an exciting game first, then I try to get a good score.

Why in the world should someone have to choose one or the other? In the past, when the AI was given advatages, we were able to have both if we played a strong game.

Lets say the "Handicap Predator" crowd gets its way, and Predator is made such that it is a definite handicap, one that the player cannot turn to his advantage. Lets say they do such a good job that the best players out there like Sir Pleb, DaveMcW, Ronald and others, can't place in the medals even when playing the best game. What will have been accomplished at that point? The only thing that will accomplish is to ensure that the wrong people get the medals.

And lesser (but aspiring!) players like me will be faced with a LOUSY choice. Do I want to compete with the best players on the handicaped level to see if I can best them, or do I want to have even a slight chance at capturing a long sought after medal? That would not be fair at all, and it would make the GOTM much less fun for me. If I get a medal, I want it to be because I earned it, not because the better players were all playing in a different sandbox!

Now I wish for Predator to be abolished. It was nice to have it for the extra challenge on the low level games, but it is just going to screw up the whole competition if things keep going the direction they are. This "Handicapped" level will only make the medals, awards and GPR meaningless.

When everyone is done turning Predator class into Handicapped class, why don't you call up the Olympic committee and convince them to have all the best athletes tie sandbags to their butts at the next Olympics? That way, someone else could win. Wouldn't that be great?

 

[solenoozerec]

This is essentially equalized by Jason's score so not an issue.

Yes if you want to go for a medal. No, if you want to go for an award.

So all these techs did you no good?

Yes they did… to my self esteem. It was cool to lead in research on demigod for a long time.

I have not played the same game on Predator and Open and probably neither of ppls here did. That would be a nice comparison btw.

I think it will not be a good comparison, because your second game is always likely to be better than the first, no matter what class you play.
No way to compare

When everyone is done turning Predator class into Handicapped class, why don't you call up the Olympic committee and convince them to have all the best athletes tie sandbags to their butts at the next Olympics? That way, someone else could win. Wouldn't that be great?

Couldn’t be said better
Fortunately there is no democracy here and those votes above do not mean much. The fate of predator-class seems to be in Ainwood’s hands who seems to value reason more than votes
Anyway, I hope predator will stay and it will not be just a level at which good sprinters are taken their legs off.

 

[akots]

Yes if you want to go for a medal. No, if you want to go for an award. ...

It is unclear and depends on the difficulty level, number of AIs and many-many other things. For example, you can see that the fastest Space victory ever was achieved on Chieftain: here.

 

[killerloop]

my 2 cents:

I see predator as the 'normal' class. If you're capable of playing te game on this level you must do this. I do not understand people that choose to play 'predator' when it fits their strategy and than go back to 'open' for comfort.

Once 'predator', always 'predator'

There is an 'open' and 'conquest' class for players that are not that experienced yet and need a chance to finish the game successfully.

Hence, keep it as it is, sometimes give the human a set back, sometimes give AI an advantage, or a combination of both. I trust ainwood and staff to come up with a balanced game anyway.

 

[Gyathaar]

Seeing how several people seem to try to play ancient age conquest for COTM5.. How about dropping predator class each month, and instead have a sponsored variant. Then in addition add another award for whoever does best within the limits of the sponsored variant.

Examples of variants could be 5CC space, OCC, AW, and so on.

If somehow you dont manage to stay within the rules of the variant, you would instead switch to the normal competition at any time (thou playing within special rules for parts of the game would prolly hamper your score a lot vs those that didnt play with special rules from the beginning).

 

[smackster]

my 2 cents:

I see predator as the 'normal' class. If you're capable of playing te game on this level you must do this. I do not understand people that choose to play 'predator' when it fits their strategy and than go back to 'open' for comfort.

Once 'predator', always 'predator'

There is an 'open' and 'conquest' class for players that are not that experienced yet and need a chance to finish the game successfully.

my 3 cents

The intent was that this is voluntary for those that want a harder game, but doesn't mean we have to play a harder game.

Just because I can beat GOTM at a certain level doesn't mean I have to play an ever harder game does it. I understand why people like to play harder and harder games, but for me there is a difficultly level which I'm comfortable with and still get enjoyment out of.

For example with both Emperor and Deity games, I don't feel the need to make it harder, regardless of the fact that I'm confident I can win those games. In fact to me if you make it too hard, I'll just run out of time, as there are only so many hours I can devote to GOTM each month. I've won games from nowhere before, with a few backward cities and know that any game can be won.

Even the sponsored variant is a risk, as I've just recently played GOTM35 as a 5CCC, and frankly gave up as it would take too long to win, and the enjoyment factor had gone. I know I could have won it, but it proved too difficult.

I think this just shows we have people who get enjoyment out of different things (I hate MM for example) and the current system seems to allow me to have a hard game without it taking over my life (anymore than it already does).

smackster

 

[ainwood]

In terms of distortion, a sponsored variant has much more of an effect on the medal table than any bonuses / obstacles for predator could ever have.

 

[EMan]

.....or as SirPleb put it "....a red flag to a bull".

I checked "other" in the poll, so now I feel obliged to throw in my 2 cents worth, or is it 2 pesos worth since I'm in Mexico!?

First, in the poll, I was looking for 2 more options:
1. Predator Class should be eliminated
2. Predator Class should be restricted to certain players (i.e. Top 10 GOTM finishers)

I played Predator in GOTM34 after returning to GOTM after a 17-month "layoff" in HOF and picked Predator, because I thought I was supposed to!......pretty stupid in retrospect. Other than ignorance (i.e. Me), ego, "red flag", elitism etc, why are people picking Predator? The challenge is NOT to win the game (for experienced players).........it's to BEAT other players scores. So I'm thinking NOW: Okay Drazek & Ronald, both top players, played at Open level in GOTM34 and came 2nd & 4th........I played Predator and came in 5th......What if I had played Open level?.......(Ahhhh, the rationalization of the human mind!)

Another Point: "If an elite player is playing predator, he sometimes is likely to do better than in open class"......If this is TRUE, I'm definitely an Open player!
(Because, I would need some convincing on this one!)

Anyways, I read Ronald & SirPleb's posts........totally agree...........of course SirPleb is always diplomatic OR perhaps just sees the "Bigger Picture" that us CivPlebs don't.

Bottom Line: Either eliminate Predator Class OR make it mandatory for players meeting certain requirements (i.e. Names starting with S and ending with b).

There should NOT be a choice between Open & Predator.........Strong players WILL play........NOT to win the game (that's a given) but to see how they compare to the other strong players......AND the comraderie in the Forum!

BTW, Conquest Class, particulary at higher game levels is a GREAT idea.........to encourage more participation!

Well done ainwood & the GOTM Team!

 

[killerloop]

to Smackster:
I agree, open or predator is a choice, and comes with what you want to get out of the game on time, enjoyment, challenge or whatsoever. No debate there.

It influences the final score, and makes games incomparable and leads to Eman's question: What would I've scored if I played open/predator...

So, as GOTM is also about score (pride), ranking etc. predator/open are different playgrounds. Hence,

Take predator out, or make it mandatory for certain players.