Preparing for a possible invasion.

[Paul#42]

As stated elsewhere, I don't see too much short term help in chivalry. We'd get it in some ten turns if they go straight for it.

I don't think knights will help us in the short run (in the long run, H'Watchas will be our tools).

They are way too expensive compared to MDI, especially if I compare the warriors we already have to the horses we'd have to build.

It would be nice of course if their MW can't retreat and our units can retreat after killing the final unit of a stack - but I guess that's really "nice to have".

So: No sidestep to Chivalry.

 

[General_W]

I don’t know if we should rule out Chivalry so lightly.

While it’s true that Knights are pretty expensive (70 shields) compared to MDI (40) – that’s not the full picture.

Knights have an extra defensive point (4.3.2) compared to MDI (4.2.1) – but of course, the biggest difference there is speed.
And in multi-player, speed kills.

The value of being able to retreat is enormous, and similarly the value of preventing Mounted Warriors from retreating can’t be over-estimated. (Just witness TNT’s disastrous battles between MW’s and their Immortals in the first MTDG) – there’s also the ability to actually respond to where needed… hit and run… and more. With roads, the movement difference is magnified to 6 moves for Knights compared to 3 for MDI.

Finally, since Knights can be upgraded to Cavalry, they’re enormously useful as a half-step towards having a ready-made Cavalry force when we put our hands on Military Tradition.

Yeah, it’s 960 beakers… but given the fact that our #1 concern is surviving to get Metallurgy… it very well might be worth it. I can envision the headlines in The RoundTable now… “Korean Knights host Tournament: sharpen skills and swords.” Maybe just that combined with the SoZ will make BABE look elsewhere?

IF, we determine that there is no sea-lane between us and BABE, and that BABE is therefore more likely to go after Saber… then I can see how I’d be more comfortable skipping Chivalry… but until then, I think we need to more seriously consider the value of Knights.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, horsemen can beat up MW pretty well, too. 2 horse can take out 2 MW for fewer shields.

The spear escorts are a different issue, but MW and swords can hopefully take care of those.

It takes 2 techs to get chivalry, so we can wait to decide until someone reseraches monotheism.

 

[General_W]

Hmm… good point about the horsemen. I forget what crummy defenders Mounted Warriors are (3.1.2). I guess because they always seem to run away, they seem more resilient than they actually are.

Of course, if we're going to use horsemen effectively against the MW's, we'll have to stay on offense.
Of course, as you allude to, getting past any spear escorts for the Mounted Warriors will be problematic – but if we force BABE to keep their MW's protected by the slow moving spears, then our MDI or Swords should be able to take out the spears, and let our horses clean up after that.

Well, it's clear we'd better start building some horses. If needed, we can upgrade them to Knights…

As a theoretical exercise … two armies of equal shield cost….

Army A

2 Med Infs [4.2.1] (40 each) = 80
4 Horses [2.1.2] (30 each) = 120

Army Cost = 200
Attack Power = 16
Defend Power = 8
Fast Movers = 4
​

Army B

2 Swords [3.2.1] (30 each) = 60
2 Knights [4.3.2] (70 each) = 140

Army Cost = 200
Attack Power = 14
Defend Power = 10
Fast Movers = 2
​

So, given 200 shields, I guess I'd take Army A with the horses. Better overall attack power, and twice the number of fast movers. Also takes advantage of our probable tech lead in having MDI, and puts fewer eggs in one basket since we have more units, just in case we happen to get a bad RNG roll or two.

I guess I've been talked into going with horsemen over knights!

I think we DO need to decide though, as it will matter on what kind of MAAP II agreement we negotiate with FREE.

 

[sirdanilot]

If BABE chooses (or has) to wait with their invasion, we could just build horsemen and let Free quickly discover Chivalry when we know BABE is coming, and send us some money to get a super large army of knights against their ancient mws...

We really shouldn't blow up those mws as much as we're doing now. I think we have a nice tech lead on Babe and most likely Gong aswell.

 

[zyxy]

Aigburth: good analysis on the map! I'll have chamsuri explore the NW a bit, but I'm quite convinced those extra sealanes do not exist.

Discussion on Chivalry seems to be going on in a few threads. I prefer horsemen for now, much easier to build up a reasonable force. Suitable rax towns would be The Institute, it will be very productive when it grows larger and after we mine the hills. Probably also The Aerie and The Arboretum (they'll be more productive when the FP finishes and when they grow a bit). We could switch The Institute to rax now, and leave the lib for later, it would finish shortly after our anarchy. Or we can chop for a rax after the lib.

 

[Niklas]

I would definitely hold on Chivalry for now. If MWs are what we expect to face, then horses are a lot more valuable than knights IMO. Speed and numbers kills.

 

[Aigburth]

Agree with horses over knights, especially when you consider that by the time chivalry can be researched we will already have a few ancient cavalry, which with their extra hit point are almost as good as knights.

 

[donsig]

Ok, good arguments for horsemen instead of knights. I'm convinced we can bypass chivalry unless we get a pressing need for it.

Looks like the nest question is how many horsemen do we build once we're out of anarchy? My preference is to get some built just in case BABE comes knocking.

 

[Paul#42]

Puh, some sigh of relief when I opened the save for turn 95. BABE is in anarchy!
(I miss a smiley wiping sweat from the forehead)

I won't go to anarchy if I just sent a fleet to my unknown neighbor to visit him...

 

[donsig]

I won't go to anarchy if I just sent a fleet to my unknown neighbor to visit him...

BABE doesn't have to worry about any of us attacking or counter attacking - we'd lose (on average) half our fleet to get there. But I also see their anarchy as a good sign for us.

 

[sirdanilot]

A good sign for us to start it aswell.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I agree - they would want to keep up the pressure. Going to war and then not being able to send more troops is a bad idea.

 

[sirdanilot]

I think we should now skip the word 'possible' in this topic title...

I just logged on to the team email and saw this letter from Saber:

Dear Council,

We agree with the proposed wording on the DAB. The links to the signed version are added to this email.

We also have some info about Babe for you. They have two galleys south of our landmass, and they have settled on an island north of our landmass. We talked to them about trading techs, but they seemed reluctant to do any trading. They mentioned that they were planning on attacking you. Their current strategy seems to be to settle all small islands. We are currently planning on preparing for an invasion, and we hope that you will be prepared too in case Babe tries to invade you.

Dutchfire
Team Saber

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3176/sabercouncildabtreatypajy1.jpg
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/9529/sabercouncildabtreatypauk8.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3285/sabercouncildabtreatypayv4.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/7431/sabercouncildabtreatypapg9.jpg
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/8614/sabercouncildabtreatypaai3.jpg

Well, we should firstly put a warrior on all our one-tile islands (I think we already did one, do we have more?). And we should whip some horsemen and MDIs I guess. When will our first AC be finished?

Oh wait, I just remembered we're in anarchy... But they are in anarchy too. As soon as DAB triggers, we should ask SABER for the gold and upgrade our warriors to MDIs.

Let the panicing begin!

 

[donsig]

Well, I can understand BABE's desire to settle all the islands. That's what we would have done have we gotten the torch. I can even understand BABE's desire to attack someone, especially the smallest civ. I can't quite understand why they'd just tell BABE that's what they're going to do. Are they so confident they don't have to keep their plans secret? Are they putting out disinformation because they are really planning to attack SABER?

Yes, we've landed a warrior on one of the small islands.

EDIT: It looks like the island north of SABER is the one SABER can reach. It makes sense BABE would go for that one first. We need to look into the feasibility of two more things: settling our island and the use of that island as a staging area for an invasion of our mainland.

 

[Aigburth]

Well, what else am I to do with this new info except produce some more map analysis



If what Saber tell us is true, I think this places Babe on the beta continent (as I named it on my previous map).

Two galley's seems too small for an invasion force, my guess is they each contain a settler and escorting unit, probably bound for the island to our north west!

 

[sirdanilot]

Well, there might follow more galleys... but I doubt it too.
Are we going to inform Free about this? We don't have a treaty with them about this, but still... Or we might of course make one.

 

[General_W]

Hmm- good analysis again Aigburth!

I think we may want to just want to include some elements of the DAB treaty (minus the tech things) in our MAAP II agreement with FREE. That'd be ideal for us, getting 20 gold per turn from both of our friends.

In order to convince FREE, we'd have to tell the more about the map... namely that BABE is the same distance from them that we are.

I guess I need to put in some work soon on drafting our response to FREE's MAAP II (I've got a busy day for part of today, but I'll try to get some time tonight.)

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm ok with letting BABE settle non-1 hex islands. We can't let them take the 1 hex 1 off our coast, but the larger one? sure. It's in our area - they will just be holding it for us and building us a harbor!!

 

[donsig]

I think we may want to just want to include some elements of the DAB treaty (minus the tech things) in our MAAP II agreement with FREE. That'd be ideal for us, getting 20 gold per turn from both of our friends.

In order to convince FREE, we'd have to tell the more about the map... namely that BABE is the same distance from them that we are.

Yes, adding DAB into MAAP II is reasonable. Let's try first to get FREE to agree to the additions without telling them what we know about the map. If they prove difficult to win over we can tell them what we know.