Priest Resources (AV especially) -- Need Ideas

[Calbrenar]

Kael popped into #erebus for a while last night and I brought up my latest question.

It seems to me that AV is sort of a all or nothing prospect. It's especially noticeable as Sheim as they typically always go AV but I imagine it's true for any civ that does go.

While every other religion (except Esus, and RoK) has it's priests buildable by Incensen, AV requires Reagents. This means that any civ planning on getting a religion can decide to prioritize priests if they have incense/gems or go for arch mages if they have reagents.

The AV player on the other hand can go for priests AND mages if he has Reagents and can't do diddly squat if he has incense or gems or anything else.

Their only real option (as an evil civ planning to go AV) is to adpot RoK and become Neutral so that they can get druids if they want any kind of T3 casters.


Kael and I tossed around the idea of using mana as requirements but decided it was counter intuitive and also ended up requiring you to go like 80% of the tech path to mages just to have the option of building priests which is self defeating.

So I'm opening up a thread for ideas on how to correct this. The obvious easy solution is to convert AV to also requiring incense. This is simple and balanced. However as we all know as a community that the designers rightly don't like making things the same just so the game is easy to balance and that's what makes FFH great. So any ideas on how to do this?

 

[jwin]

I think that all the priests should be buildable without resources, and then get a bonus from the proper resource. Also make high priests require the resource to be promoted. This would put them similar to the melee units, which are buildable without metals but get a bonus from them.

I believe the way it is set up now, all priests have 2 spells. You could make them have only 1 without the resource. Or, take away their free xp gain unless they have the resource. Or, some of the bonus promotions like command and inquisition. I don't know if these suggestions are codable.

I always run into this problem with Runes, even more than with AV. It seems that the only gems on the map are always placed in one little area.

 

[Calbrenar]

Depending on the maps you play (Creation) Reagents can be an enormous problem. There should always be at least some gems somewhere but oftentimes only 1 reagents. The easiest solution is using balanced resources but also boring.

I like the idea of making high priests require the resources as well as goin gwith affinity instead of a requirement though.

 

[stp]

Jwin's idea of appling a boost to priests when you have the appropriate resource could work.

My idea would be to add or-requirements for priest units. All priest could be buildable with incense, but AV priest could alternatively use reagents and RoK ones gems. More appropriate alternatives could be defined for other religions.

 

[Calbrenar]

That's the problem tho stp. We couldn't come up with any appropriate resources lol.

Also applying a boost to priests doesn't address the origional problem of what would apply the boost? Are we back to incense for them all? If not then what? Reagents in general is a bad idea since it's already a requirement for a key unit.

 

[stp]

Perhaps we will need new resources for this. When taking the alternative resources approach, we could have OO priests require an ocean resource (fish?). There is no perfect resource but it would reward appropriate behavior.

AV - arcane (forbidden knowledge) - reagents
RoK - mining - gems
OO - nightmares from the sea - fish?
FoL - nature, growth - food resource?
Empy - wisdom - cotton? (No particular reason here, maybe they like cotton robes)
O - law, obedience - no idea

 

[Tarquelne]

How about reagents OR Entropy mana OR death mana?

Yes, there are the problems with that you mentioned. But it still offers 3x as many chances to get a needed resource. All three are tradable, one comes with the AV holy building and the other can often be found on the map at the game's start.

And I wouldn't call going for Necromancy "self defeating." it still comes before Sorcery, and Priests still get rather powerful effects when built - they don't need to go though the Adept stage.

Personally, btw, it doesn't bother me when I want to play AV and I have to go take reagents from someone else: I play on a LAN and, playing AV, I enjoy having good reason to threaten people. It makes a nice change from being evil for the sake of evil.

 

[xienwolf]

AV could require one of the common Hell Resources I like Toads

Or make them all be Reagents, with alternatives being:

AV - Incense (rituals)
OO - Crab (strange water critters)
FOL - Fur (nature)
ROK - Gems (earthy)
EMP - Silk (high society)
ORDER - Iron (warlike, and stolid)

 

[stp]

Are you really proposing that all priests should be buildable with reagents?
That could make the resource definitely overpowered. I assume you just exchanged incense and reagents. Hell resource for AV would be good, when living in hell you should be able to have powerful demon worshipers.

Actually, I like your ideas better than mine, but I'm not to sure about iron for the order. Metal resources are already very useful.

 

[xienwolf]

Yes, I do propse Reagents be one option for every Priest type. It is rare enough, and already gives the other Top Casters, so why not?

 

[stp]

If you have no reagents you will not only be denied access to Archmages but also all priests if you fail to get their alternate resource as well. Granted it is very unlikely to have none of these, but still we are back to the problem that the failure to get reagents can cripple your options. It will force any player to adopt a religion he has the resources for ignoring diplomacy (or to forgo priests) and alignment.

 

[Calbrenar]

If you have no reagents you will not only be denied access to Archmages but also all priests QUOTE]


Welcome to what it's like to play AV now. It's not that fun.


When I say self-defeating to me priests mages melee and recon line are the 4 main options for soldiers. Everyone has those 4 options and can choose which way to go based on what they have available. AV currently has either 2 or 4 options depending on whether or not they can obtain reagants.

Additionally needing mana to found priests means that you're already almost all the way to getting mages so its really not an alternate research path.

 

[Alzara]

As it is, it can be difficult to get AV priests if you have no reagents. You just have to play it diplomatically and hope that you can trade reagents with another empire.

Someone proposed above as having Priests require reagents OR another resource based on religion (i.e. incense for AV, crabs for OO etc).

Maybe that could be switched around such that ALL priests can be built if you have incense. As an alternative, priests of each religion could be built with another resource if incense is not available.

Eg AV priests can be built with incense OR reagents, ROK with incense OR iron/gold/whatever.

Could this work? It would garentee the production of priests for most people, which I think is quite realistic. It would, however, still require you to own at least some appropriate resource for their production...

What do you guys think?

Al

 

[Calbrenar]

The problem was never RoK/AV as far as finding resources for them. The problem is some of the other ones if you convert to that type of system. Like requiring crabs for OO is not only sorta... funny (I suggested fish to kael at first and thought it was silly) but also penalizes poeple who go OO but aren't Lanun since why would you get fishing at all if you're landlocked but OO is still a good religion (amurites) etc.

 

[nihonjeff]

There's an interesting concept raised by Mortenart here, where he suggests allowing Great People to sacrifice to create a resource on a tile that matches their theme. For example, an Engineer could be sac'd to pop Mithril on a tile, or a Sage could create Reagents. If that gets implemented, it could solve the problem of a civ being crippled by not having access to a critical resource.

 

[xienwolf]

Isn't Fishing required for OO though?

Personally I don't like having Incense being what enables everything because it is fairly common. Diplomacy (to include war) or good scouting/luck & city placement ought to be involved for all of the religions IMO, then you might be forced to take what religion you can make priests for instead of always having completely free choice among them all

 

[jimi12]

i think the resource reqs for the other religions r fine as they are. switching AV to incense would bethe easiest and most logical fix since it would require minimal work and still provide a good solution. I also like the idea however of making priests buildable w/o resources and then making the resourced give them power ups like extra spells, free xp...

i dont really think fish or crabs would be a good switch for OO priests. i mean, the incense is something a priest uses to carry out their duties. so fish wouldnt really fit thematically since they dont really use fish for their prophesying or other priestly duties.

 

[Tarquelne]

they dont really use fish for their prophesying or other priestly duties.

Are you sure?

 

[BeefontheBone]

Icthyomancy Conchomancy could also work for Clams. And oenomancy for wine.

@ xienwolf: Toads, you say? Apparently batraquomancy's a real thing

 

[Alzara]

Just a quick addition; Using hell terrain features for AV priests would make it impossible to get them in games using compact enforced or no hell terrain. Also, even with the spread of hell terrain, it would require an AV civ to have hell terrain in their borders. If they are a long way from Hyborem this may not happen for a long time (especially if there are a large number of good civs blocking the spread of hell terrain to the player in question).

I have read the post regarding shuttling resources and creating them with great people. I think this is a fantastic idea and worth looking into. It provides an alternative use for great people, and makes them all the more strategic

Al