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Prince is too easy, King+ is unenjoyable

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by snuggans, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    I play on King because I play to have fun, not min max and chop rush everything. Also, I can't stand the AI getting flat out bonuses like free things. That really annoys me, so I won't do the higher difficulty levels where that is rampant.
     
    Caesar Augustus 27 BC and Icicle like this.
  2. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

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    My god, what fools we were to never notice. :eek2:
     
  3. Caesar Augustus 27 BC

    Caesar Augustus 27 BC Chieftain

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    I completely agree, I'm going to do a Deity run soon just for the achievement and to be one of the ~5% of players who have it. Otherwise I'll be sticking to Emperor difficulty, I'm playing this game to have fun rather than struggling against AIs who have broken bonuses like +80% production and starting with 3 settlers and 5 warriors.
     
  4. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I think it's especially annoying when the AI starts really close and settles towards you. Started a few games in the last few days where within about 3 turns, there's an AI border only 2-3 tiles away from me, or within about 15 turns there's already 3-4 warriors and a slinger outside my door ready to go to war. Even if I see them coming, if all I have to defend is a slinger and my warrior, and maybe a 2nd slinger a few turns into the battle, it's definitely not much fun. I challenge myself at Immortal, but definitely quit a lot of games early because the AI starting bonuses are just ridiculous.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Divine spark + Pingala + Oracle = all great writers but pointless except for the cash for domination pushes.

    OP, loads of advice already. If you cannot get Stonehenge on King you probably have not really played enough but it's your judgement and only you have the knowledge of how valid that is. Personally, having played a lot and also have seen polls on the subject Emperor is where most people enjoy the game most. But it is not about getting Stonehenge, something I only ever built once then realized its something to slow the AI down more than benefit you (as said already).

    When a company replaces old software with new they always complain about the new and want the old back.... then they get used to it and the cycle repeats... it is most likely just what you are used to. I hate the art work and many other things about VI but I have ventured far enough to not want to go back. The thing that keeps me personally is the choice in actions is more varied.
     
  6. Caesar Augustus 27 BC

    Caesar Augustus 27 BC Chieftain

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    Agreed, it makes the AI harder without them having bonuses that are just stupid.
     
  7. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    This seems to be me to be a sane and logical alternative to simply upping the difficulty level.

    At Emperor and higher, the AI's cheats are so severe that the early game amounts to this:

    AI is settling the map while I am still scouting for locations and goody huts.

    AI is building early wonders and districts while I am scrambling to bang out settlers.

    AI is earning GP points while I am still waiting on a pantheon.

    AI is settling more cities while I am trying to get some archers and builders.

    AI is gobbling up all religions before I can even get a holy site out.

    AI is out exploring the waters and finding new spots to settle while I am still getting out campuses.

    None of that, of course, means I won't eventually outpace the AI. Building wonders whenever the capacity to do so exists doesn't actually provide a good ROI. Same goes for founding a religion just because you can. But resigning oneself to forfeiting all the early races takes the things about the early game that are supposed to feel like a process of joyful discovery and accomplishment and strips it down to a scramble to gain a no-frills toehold. I have become conditioned to think this is the de facto way to play Civ. Insane.
     
    footslogger likes this.
  8. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Yes, but you get to choose the map, opponents, level, pace, and a whole lot more that the AIs don't have access to, as well as save and restores.
    I think the little guys deserve some bonuses for that, and for their resolute determination in the face of scorn and derision from carbon-based "types". :)
     
  9. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Not this meat puppet here.

    Huge maps, random opponents, random map (or maybe a fractal), and a random civ.

    All the better to explore with!
     
  10. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well I mean people won't even touch even half the saves I post, lol.

    #iamverybadass
     
  11. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Prince

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    I mostly play on Emperor and still find it easy to get enough cities even if I want to play peacefully. Some tips that might help with the concerns you listed...

    1. You want to get a second city right away. I generally build a settler as soon as my capital is at population two. Usually I build a scout first to look for new city locations along with the initial warrior and then build a settler second (maybe third if I decide to get a quick builder before the settler or I'm not at pop 2 yet).

    2. Once you have two cities you can usually wait until you have researched both State Workforce and Early Empires before building more cities. These two civics each give a governor point. Use both of those points to get Magnus to his promotion that prevents population loss from settlers. You will also want to use the Colonization policy at this point for the 50% reduced cost of settlers. If you also managed to build the Government Plaza and Ancestrial Hall you get another 50% reduced cost plus free builders with each city so be sure to place Magnus in that city. That city should be dedicated to just pumping out settlers until you have about 8-10 cities total. The city will continue to grow thanks to the Magnus promotion which allows you to work even more tiles and produce settlers even faster.

    3. God King is almost always the first policy you want to slot as soon as you complete Code of Laws for the +1 Faith per turn until you have enough faith for a Pantheon.

    4. Use the Agote policy to build just three slingers and maybe a second warrior and position them around the perimiter of your area to push back fog of war which keeps barbarian camps away. Unless you are going for early conquest or get unlucky with an agressive neighbor, you shouldn't need more than this and with the policy they can be built pretty quick. Slingers and Warriors also have no maintanice cost so you dont have to worry about that. Again, if you prioritize getting the Ancesteral Hall you get free builders with each city so that saves a lot of time not having to build them. If you dont have the AH then dont worry too much about builders. It's more important to get those settlers out and claim as much land as you can (and be able to defend it). Aside from the first builder that gets your capital going and gets you those early inspirations and eurekas, you can mostly wait for Feudalism to really start on improvements. Another tip to keep aggressive AI off your back for a little while is to send a delegation and negotiate Open Borders (if you have Writing) as soon as you meet them. This usually gets your relationship with them moving in the positive direction. If you wait even one turn they may fall into unfriendly and then won't accept your delegation. Also, Archers are way better than slingers so upgrade them ASAP if you are threatened and use the Conscription policy to negate the maintaince cost.

    5. Getting a religion can be tough for sure. Some civilizations are better at it but if you really want one you have to sacrifice something else like building a Holy Site & Shrine in the capital (after the first settler) if you think you can survive without the slingers and maybe even building a Holy Site & Shrine in your second city as well if you want to give up the Government Plaze & Ancestrial Hall. You can also grab Divine Spark as your Pantheon (which you should get quickly from using God King policy) and get the policy from Mysticism as soon as you unlock a wildcard policy slot. You can also run the Holy Site prayers project. So getting a religion is very possible even on higher difficulty but you do have to make other sacrifices which may not be worth it.

    6. Agian, getting out those settlers and grabbing land (and a few slingers/archers & warriors to defend it) is first priority. Building districts and improvements can mostly wait (unless you really want a religion). Maybe build one district to get the inspiration for State Workforce but aside from that you probably want a commercial hub (and market) or harbor (and lighthouse) to be the first district you build in most cities for the traders and you have to wait for the techs that unlock them anyway. If you want, you can place a district as soon as a city hits population 1, 4, 7, 10, etc to lock in the cost but not actually build it until later.



    I hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  12. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Thank you for the advice. I'm appreciative of the effort you put into it. It's a fine guide.

    Thing is, the very thing I was speaking of with regards to playing on Emperor is this very sort of scripted approach: always pick Magnus, always give him such-and-such promotions, always pick this policy followed by that one. Games need to be more about choices than following a script, and the enjoyment of making choices at the early part of the game should be the sacrifice in some zero-sum approach to having the AI remain remotely competitive in the later game.
     
  13. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Prince

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    Well, my intent was to show that expanding peacfully is very possible even on Emperor which seemed to be what you were having trouble with but I wouldn't say this is the only approach that works or that you have to stick to this exact "script" to be successful. You may want to go for early conquest or early religion which would be a completley different approach from the one I described. Also, my tips were meant to be general but depending on the civilization and map you are playing the "script" is going to change very much.

    I just finished an Emperor game as Japan on an island map. I had a great time just trying to get all my districts clustered together to try and see how high I could get the adjacency bonus. I only settled 6 cities and never built a single commercial hub. I built two Holy Sites not because I was trying to get a religion but just because Japan gets them for half cost and gets more adjacency bonus for each distrcit. I never used that Faith to buy even a single religious unit spending the Faith instead to buy buildings from Jesuit Education and relying on Religious Conversion belief to spread my religion to my other cities. I built amazing harbors with shipyards that had crazy +15 production and went for culture victory from Japan's half cost Theatres and lots of water parks and seaside resorts. Indonesia was close to getting a Religion Victory and Australia was starting to build Spaceports so the end was competitive but I absolutley did not have to follow any strict script to win and instead let the map and my civilization dictate my approach.
     
  14. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    It wouldn't surprise me if the low number of people who have the Deity achievement represents some combination of people enjoying the early game more and simply never getting to the late game because they restart, and using mods that disable achievements, rather than being a testament to its actual difficulty. Even the 'Settler or harder' achievement has only a 42% claim rate, and it's down to less than 15% by King. Don't be fooled by the figure into concluding Deity is dauntingly hard.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  15. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Mods don't disable achievements.. And even if they did, most casual players aren't exactly the type to engage in finding mods.

    The numbers are fairly consistent with Civ 5's too. And anecdotally speaking people I actually know don't play civs on high or even mid difficulty either because of the handicaps.

    Sure people don't finish games, but I think people are overestimating overall skill level of not just civ but gaming in general. Many people just don't take gaming seriously, and the people that actually do are by and far in the minority. Even in games with competitive content often will see a fairly low average skill level, much less a predominantly single player game.

    I mean to people that have played civ for many years, it may seem easy, but that's just not that common. I wouldn't doubt that civ 6 is an easier one, of course.

    You really don't need any of that. As long as you don't die early on, your start isn't complete crap, and aren't meming, you really can't lose on Emperor because the AI simply does't know how to win. I have many games where I have 2 cities @ turn 100 (yea I don't give a damn about efficiency), sometimes even later, and yet the AI is nowhere even near any form of victory when I finish the game some time before t300. Hell, even the deity AI struggles to win at that time and the tech pace is faster. Fact is, the challenge in the game is simply about overcoming the mechanics, rather than outplaying the AI.

    Now it's entirely possible to get very bored and quit via apathy. But that's not really the same thing.

    I do agree that chopping needs to be nerfed and have disdain for that. The dominance of certain units and chop abuse does indeed kill off much diversity. And I also feel there are so many things in the game that just have such an awful ROI. Hopefully GS fixes that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  16. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    Ive gotten stonehenge once on deity with Brazil (of all civs!) before...

    You just need to recognize when you have the tiles to go for it... You will NEED to settle your first city next to a useful natural wonder AND be isolated enough to be able to neglect defenses
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    This is merely a construct of your mind.

    So on emperor I nearly always pick Amani first. The reasons are fourfold
    • Mainly it is era points, getting a classic golden age with monumentality is a must. With Amani I can rack up an additional +6 normally. It all depends on what else is happening.
    • Magnus is great but chopping can often be limited and while waiting has it's issues later chops are stronger.
    • Do I really need to be super efficient and overflow chop etc etc... the answer is NO! Once you know how to play fairly well these are not necessary and the game is boring if you choose to continue to use this approach.
    • You will normally get 2 governor promotions early, amani then Magnus is my preference

    If food is short I will choose Magnus first, not for the chop but for the provision as the second promotion.
    Sometimes I will choose Liang first, the extra chop, especially as china makes you in essence a very early 5 chop. But I also like fisheries.
    Because I take risks by going scout/builder/settler I have to accept Victor occasionally.

    if you are not winning at emperor consistently you are just not growing fast enough at the beginning, either by conquest, settler or both. You do not NEED Magnus at htis level, have fun, play varied.
     
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  18. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Prince

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    Agreed. Many people are so convinced you have to follow some sort of min/max, chopping exploit, full conquest strategy to win at higher difficulty.

    My tips were just one possible, general, non-civ specific approach on how to grow in the early game and compete for land when the ai is getting free settlers since @steveg700 expressed frustration about AI settling while he was stil scouting or “building campuses”. I mentioned Mangus for the no population loss promotion and at no point did I even mention the word “chop” but people see what they want to see.

    The devs have said from the beginning that this version of civ is about “playing the map” and I think they have really succeeded with that. Map and your civilization guide your choices not any fixed “meta” strategy unless you are trying to win in the least possible number of turns but not at all necessary just to win.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Nor am I in any way questioning either your good self or anyone else, just saying the magnis mindset is for those that want to play with minimum turns... I play that way but also play immersive and just 'relaxed'
    100% agree
    I am 'still scouting' until the map is done.... I am certainly not building more than one campus before T50, often not even one..... but I will place them, I just cannot help myself as it seems such an integral part of the game and how to catch up.
     
  20. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, by that some token, my reply to Archon Wing wasn't to express that I wasn't successful on higher difficulties (I too default, but rather that the AI getting extra cities and inherent bonuses gives them extra means to encroach on the race elements of the game: wonders, religion, and (the biggie) settling the choicest locations. I was saying that instead of ratcheting up the difficulty to afford the AI more cheats, a player can instead just limit how many cheap, easy tactics they wish to avail themselves of.

    The issue isn't figuring how to be successful. The issue is figuring out how to enjoy what I'm doing. It would be nice to contend in the game's early races more often than I resign from them and treat them as production traps for the AI. It'd be pleasant to be able to start developing a city instead of being in a mad rush to keep up with the settlers the AI can toss out at every resource that isn't nailed down. Maybe even get that inspiration for State Workforce with some consistency. Of course, it's both efficient and easy enough to let the AI build its wonders and then take them. Or even build settlers and take them. At Emperor and higher, on the one hand there's the self-imposed-fighting-with-hand-tied-behind-back yanking on one end of my enjoyment, while the AI's cheats tugging on the other. And somewhere in there I have to find a way to experiment and discover to keep the whole thing from feeling monotonous.

    Disagree on this for the most part. Maps are often very unengaging and result in more abandoned games than anything else. Luxury resources are more homogeneous than in V (because other than granaries, they didn't bring in any of the resource-augmenting buildings), and too easy to downplay now that entertainment centers fill the happiness hole. Would be nice to feel like bonus resources were good to work rather than to harvest, but a +1 yield of some type isn't really that relevant. Guess if it's cattle or sheep the .5 housing is something.

    Really would help if trade routes were tied into the tile improvements rather than supplanting them. If I have a farmbelt city, it should be able to act as a breadbasket for other cities. If I have a big mining city, it should be where I'm sending hammers from. And for that matter, other civ's should be able to actually reach my cities that have luxury resources with a route before I can trade it to them. But the way trade routes work now, awarding freebies based on districts and then more based on alliances, that works against planning out cities based on what the map has made available.

    Strategic resources, of course, are getting a buff from the expansion, so maybe now I don't stop feeling drawn to claim more than one of any strategic resource. I have some hopes riding on that, to be sure.
     

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