Prince... then again maybe I don't have a clue!

[Kong99]

After winning my second game playing Prince, I have gotten me arse handed to me in the last three. In particular I am not generating enough coin early in the game, early being say around 1000BC-1000AD. (Before access to Market, Bank, etc) I am getting knocked down to 50% Research and this is just killing me. At this point I just start falling behind everyone and just too weak. Am I not building enough villages?

Frustrated in Texas,

Kong

 

[njorls]

50% research isn't that bad.

The question has a lot of possible answers. Is city upkeep the problem? Research Code of Laws and build courhouses. Or maybe you're expanding too fast. Maybe it's unit maintenance, getting rid of obsolete units could help there. Or a war to put all these units to work on, it will bring in some plunder money. Or maybe you're right and you need to build more cottages. It's hard to tell without you being more specific.

 

[podraza]

Are you whipping too much? I had this problem right after I learned how to use slavery. I was whipping so often that my commerce heavy tiles were never being worked.

 

[cabert]

try a game with hard focus on economy :
rush to pottery, improve land to cottages, work them
then to writing, open borders to get foreign trade routes
then to currency (needs maths)
then to guilds, ...
then to liberalism (education!)

Don't forget to build all the units and settlers and workers you need, between the markets...

CoL is really good when you settle widely spread small cities. For larger cities, markets are much better, and +1 (free!) trade route can make a huge difference with open borders.

When you hit guilds, knights will save your game .

PS: don't forget to trade techs.

 

[Kong99]

Thanks for the responses guys. I rarely whip, IMO it is normally counter-productive. IMO if I get to 50% research then I'm done unless it's there VERY briefly, because you fall so far behind in research.

I have focused more on economy this current game, in particular research, and am holding my own. I am playing Prince/Continents/8 players/No Space Race.

I founded Judaism, the other 2 early religions were founded on the other continent. So it spread well of it's own and I sent out missionaries, I built the Oracle to generate a Great Prophet to build the Temple of Solomon. This was a nice boost. I built the Spiral Minaret which gave another good boost.

I think I still need more workers early and build more cities. I 'think' a lot of your early economy is driven by what resources are close to your cities, so obviously city placement is critical. The 3 games I did poorly in I had either poor starting cities or just below average resources. This game I've had good resources in good locations.

 

[cabert]

I think I still need more workers early and build more cities. I 'think' a lot of your early economy is driven by what resources are close to your cities, so obviously city placement is critical. The 3 games I did poorly in I had either poor starting cities or just below average resources. This game I've had good resources in good locations.

too few workers was my worse mistake for a long time.

I've now given myself a rule of at least 1 worker /city (on average, not meaning one worker is affected to a city). When I break this rule, it must be for a really good reason (like preparing an assault on my worker provider aka neighbour)

 

[Vikciukas]

One thing to remember is that percentage of commerse going to research does not mean a thing. It's the ammount of beakers you produce that counts. Look at commerse advisor (I don't remember how it is called) to see the actual ammount of beakers you produce.

I remember I used to get a shrine early and was so happy looking at my 100% research and having 20 gpt. But after some time I was left behind in technologies. Finnaly I was able to figure out the problem, but only after looking at how much beakers I produce.

Morale: do not ever get fulled by percentages, as the value they are applied to is what really matters.

 

[Kong99]

Vik, thanks, that dawned on me while playing this current game. I'm not gonna win but I'm holding my own, Montezuma is being an arse and draggin Khan along with him. Here maybe is a better question, do ya'll have a general rule on number of cities?? I know many factors affect this, but for instance certain wonders require a certain # of cities or # of buildings. Ok lets put a little more parameters around this question. How many cities at 0 AD, 1000 AD, 1500 AD? I think I need 8 strong cities by 1500. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?!?! Thanks guys!

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Vik, thanks, that dawned on me while playing this current game. I'm not gonna win but I'm holding my own, Montezuma is being an arse and draggin Khan along with him. Here maybe is a better question, do ya'll have a general rule on number of cities?? I know many factors affect this, but for instance certain wonders require a certain # of cities or # of buildings. Ok lets put a little more parameters around this question. How many cities at 0 AD, 1000 AD, 1500 AD? I think I need 8 strong cities by 1500. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?!?! Thanks guys!

kong, this will sound flippant, but its not meant to be. you need as many cities as you can support.

if you post a save, we can give you better feedback...

 

[cabert]

8 cities by 1500 AD?
Is this a duel map?

At 1500 AD, you should have all the economic techs and cottages to support an unlimited number of cities. You should get all (good) cities possible. A good city is a city paying it's own maintenance.
The "number of cities" maintenance tops at 6 in prince games if i'm not mistaken. This means that you're probably hitting max already in your "old" cities. Meaning that a new city will simply cost you distance upkeep + 6.
Any city able to work 2 cottages or 4 sea tiles will pay for itself.
Any city providing your empire with happiness and health will be worthwhile.
ANy city able to have more than 12 hammers will pay for itself.

Basically every city falls into any of those considerations.

In the beginning, it's different. You need to tech to pottery, currency, CoL before stopping to care about number of cities.

Edit : a wise set of civics will help your borderline useless cities to be good.
If you have loads of small cities, Rep + caste system + mercantilism makes sure every city can give you 6 beakers + 1 commerce (city tile) to be converted. Caste system can be "overkill", since a library can be whipped for only a few pop points.

 

[Kong99]

Monte won a Diplomatic victory in 1988. Diplo kinda odd to me, I'm thinking to myself doesn't anyone else want to win?!!? I usually watch the timeline after the game and I most definetely am not expanding fast enough. I've got to crank out more cities faster... period.

I like to play Continents because of the depth of gameplay that the ocean provides but I'm finding that the Civ's on the continent I'm not on tend not to war much and usually 2 become very strong and win the the game. Of course this game Monte was on my continent and was the 3rd strongest based on score..., if I had Space Race on I know one of the 2 strong ones from the other continent would have won a Space Race.

The good news is that my economy did well and I for the most part was ahead or just little behind on tech.

Time to try again...

Kong

 

[cabert]

you can also consider capturing those missing cities...

 

[ShannonCT]

Kong - What is your specialist strategy? I see you built the Oracle in order to get a Great Prophet for the Temple of Solomon. (I think there are better uses for a Prophet, like lightbulbing Theology or Civil Service.) Do you make an effort to found a city that can support a lot of specialists and generate a lot of Great People? If not, you're missing a big opportunity.

Try this: found your second city in a spot that will allow it a large population (near several bonus food resorces and around floodplains and grasslands) and a reasonable amount of production (hills, forests). Improve the food resources immediately and then chop the Pyramids. Build a granary to get the population growing quickly. Whip buildings that will allow you to hire specialists (library, forge). Use the first Great Engineer (or the Oracle) for Metal Casting to build a forge. When you get Literature, build the Great Library and then the National Epic in this city. With the Pyramids, Great Library, National Epic, 1 engineer specialist (w/ the forge) and 2 scientist specialists (w/ the library), you'll be generating 40 great people points per turn (60 if a philosophical civ). There will be a small chance of generating an artist but most great people you get will be engineers and scientists. Engineers and scientists are great for lightbulbing military techs (machinery, optics, astronomy, engineering, chemistry...). What you now have is a Great People Farm.

If you're playing a philosophical civ, you might want to make several cities focus on specialists rather than cottages. The Pyramids (and representation) are a must in this case. If playing a financial civ, cottages are usually better for most cities, but you still want to have a Great People Farm, because those early great people are cheap (require few great people points) and great people can lightbulb some expensive techs.

 

[Kong99]

Ok, I started another one. Prince, Lakes, All Victory Conditions, Epic, Large Map. I always do Random leader and got the Incan.

It is 830 AD and I've got a score of 601, the next closest is Loius at 518 and the lowest is Alexander at 329. I have 7 cities founded with plans/space for 2 more. Then I'll have to expand by force, which I plan to do. I focused on city building and improvements, and enough Axeman to keep the Barbarians at bay. I've founded 2 religions Hinduism and Confusianism. My plan for GP is to and generate engineers and scientists. Since I focused on growth I did not try for the early wonders, I built the Hanging Gardens to pop 1 Great Prophet so I can generate income from my Religion(s).

So far so good... thanks for all the suggestions, thoughts, and opinions!

Kong

 

[cabert]

hanging gardens give engineers...
BUt that's just as good
If you want a prophet, build a temple and run a priest specialist in hanging gardens city. You'll have 50% odds for a priest, 50% for an engineer, and the guy will come earlier .

 

[Kong99]

Yea Cabert, I'm not sure now if I wanted to generate a Great Prophet but wonders of that type were unavailable so I went for the Gardens knowing it generated an Great Engineer or was just mistaken, not sure, but I know now that I LOVE Great Engineers and Great Scientists!!

I'm cranking now. It's 1776 and I have 16 cities with 4 forthcoming. My score is 2294 and my closest rival is Khan at 1477. I'm debating if I go for a Diplomatic, Space, or Conquest victory at this point.

 

[cabert]

don't debate too much
Lakes call for conquest.

 

[Rathelm]

Vik, thanks, that dawned on me while playing this current game. I'm not gonna win but I'm holding my own, Montezuma is being an arse and draggin Khan along with him. Here maybe is a better question, do ya'll have a general rule on number of cities?? I know many factors affect this, but for instance certain wonders require a certain # of cities or # of buildings. Ok lets put a little more parameters around this question. How many cities at 0 AD, 1000 AD, 1500 AD? I think I need 8 strong cities by 1500. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?!?! Thanks guys!

My opinon is this for prince on a standard size map. No more than 5 cities by CoL. No more than 10 cities before Grocer. Post Economics you can theoritically run with unlimitied cities. Obviously these rules are not set in stone and you can run with more or less based on specific circumstances.