Probably Improved Gameplay Mod

[Minor Annoyance]

There seems to be so little space between the ironclad and the destroyer it's hard to figure where it won't go obsolete before you even get it. Best I can think of is put the destroyer with electricity plus require combustion, and put a new ocean steam ship at combustion or railroad. I don't know what the right thing is.

On a similar subject I think a siege weapon between trebucket and cannon is needed. Like the trebucket was added because it was a pain using the catapult against cities with it's low attack power, there still isn't a good field siege weapon. Something that combines the treb and cannon. Like 8 with +50% vs. cities at gunpowder. It is historically inaccurate though as early gunpowder siege weapons were much better at attacking fortifications than in the field so as it is the game does reflect reality.

 

[Col Kurtz]

As a human player, I think I like having forest preserves come early in this mod. However, I know one of the stated goals of this mod is to be AI neutral (not changing things that AI can't adapt to). It seems to me, in my games, that the AI tends to build way more forest preserves than it should, and never replaces them with lumbermills or anything else. Now, maybe I'm undervaluing FPs, but just about all AI forests I see have FPs instead of lumbermills. I don't think it can cope with them coming so early. What are people's thoughts on this? Have you noticed the same thing?

 

[PieceOfMind]

As a human player, I think I like having forest preserves come early in this mod. However, I know one of the stated goals of this mod is to be AI neutral (not changing things that AI can't adapt to). It seems to me, in my games, that the AI tends to build way more forest preserves than it should, and never replaces them with lumbermills or anything else. Now, maybe I'm undervaluing FPs, but just about all AI forests I see have FPs instead of lumbermills. I don't think it can cope with them coming so early. What are people's thoughts on this? Have you noticed the same thing?

You raise a valid point. Thanks for the feedback. I'll look into this a bit more closely but a good option would be getting the Better AI guys to have a look at how improvements are valued. It's even possible that the over-use of forest preserves is a result of the Better AI rather than original BtS code.

A savegame would be really handy, if you happen to have one.

 

[darkedone02]

It will be nice if there was a Industrialism vs Environmentism war-thing going on, similar to Fall from Heaven Apocalypse stuff.

 

[Col Kurtz]

Okay, now that I've looked back at the game, I think I overstated the number of forest preserves a little bit. I would estimate maybe a third of AI forests have FPs instead of LMs.

I attached save games from 1848 and 2000. The 1848 one is good because you can see Spain before I took over (and built over) parts of it. In that save, you can see clusters of FPs by both Madrid and Rome. Also, there is a Spanish worker replacing a lumbermill with a forest preserve on a hill (use world builder to place spies around there, so then you can go back and read what the workers are doing). That sort of makes me think FPs coming before LMs isn't the problem (if there even is a problem), since the AI is consciously choosing a FP over a LM.

Again, maybe this is just me undervaluing FPs. I suppose it may be the best way to deal with unhappiness sometimes depending on the situation.


Also, if I may, I'd like to suggest a possible balancing change to be included in the mod. It may be too game changing for the focus of this mod and the AI. It is not my idea, but I can't remember who or where I saw it. Basically, it makes Slavery available with Masonry, and Bronze visible with Mining. The goal is to minimize the rush to Bronze Working. However, I don't know if the AI adapts well, and also, if Bronze is visible with a "level 1" tech, it seems like Horses should be visible with the Wheel or something too. I'm not sure it has a place in this mod. And also, it's pretty easy for anyone to change on their own.

 

[TheLazyHase]

Also, if I may, I'd like to suggest a possible balancing change to be included in the mod. It may be too game changing for the focus of this mod and the AI. It is not my idea, but I can't remember who or where I saw it. Basically, it makes Slavery available with Masonry, and Bronze visible with Mining. The goal is to minimize the rush to Bronze Working. However, I don't know if the AI adapts well, and also, if Bronze is visible with a "level 1" tech, it seems like Horses should be visible with the Wheel or something too. I'm not sure it has a place in this mod. And also, it's pretty easy for anyone to change on their own.

Well, for sure this kinf of change would help axe rush. If you mean "bronze appear by mining and can be used once bronze working is researched", then I believe it may be confusing, especially for spear. "I have hunting, mine on copper, and can't build them !".

Other than that, I can't see negative in this kind of change, even if I wouldn't bet it really change the game for the better. It would help axe rush, maybe slow down a little bronze working, and surely make me search for masonry sooner, but chopping tree is just too important in my opinion to be delayed.

 

[Col Kurtz]

Yeah, with the way it is, there's just so much important stuff that comes with Bronze Working that it's too much of a no brainer. I mean, you get chopping, slavery, reveal bronze, and axemen.

If you switch things around, does the AI adjust to the changes. That is the only thing keeping me from moving things around in my games. Either the way I mentioned in my previous post or in some other way.

About the spearmen issue, why not move spearmen to Bronze Working, and make Hunting a prerequisite to build them. Or allow them to be built without Bronze Working, but that probably doesn't make too much sense logically/historically.

Bottom line though, for me, is does the AI adapt. I have no understanding of how the AI makes its decisions.

 

[TheLazyHase]

Yeah, with the way it is, there's just so much important stuff that comes with Bronze Working that it's too much of a no brainer. I mean, you get chopping, slavery, reveal bronze, and axemen.

Chopping and axes are the near-only culprit. Slavery is good a long time after, so it's more a buff to construction than any kind of nerf to bronze working, you need to have it long before slavery show his power.

Please note that showing copper with mining does not mean by any extend that you can hook it - like for uranium it can be revealed and not hooked until a later tech.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Axemen have been nerfed a little, as has slavery as well. On the other hand, Iron Working has been boosted a bit by getting from jungle chops.

I'm not sure I want to fiddle with the early game balance by much more right at the moment. Bronze Working is a strong tech but so are a lot of other second tier techs.

Revealing copper with an earlier tech but where you can't hook it up opens up potential for confusion like with the uranium-mine-access-requires-fission problem people have later in the game. Revealing copper earlier would probably even make Bronze Working a more attractive tech.

 

[Col Kurtz]

I'm not sure I want to fiddle with the early game balance by much more right at the moment. Bronze Working is a strong tech but so are a lot of other second tier techs.

I agree, this mod is good because it's very conservative. Messing with bronze working and everything would change things way too much. If people want to make changes like that on their own, or as sub-mods, that's great, but I like how the mod minimally affects gameplay. Also, I really like how the major gameplay changes/additions are available as options when starting games.

Revealing copper with an earlier tech but where you can't hook it up opens up potential for confusion like with the uranium-mine-access-requires-fission problem people have later in the game. Revealing copper earlier would probably even make Bronze Working a more attractive tech.

Well, if you have copper, it will make it more attractive. But if you see that you don't have copper, it will make it less attractive. Personally, I like knowing where resources are before you can actually use them.

 

[essmene]

Well, if you have copper, it will make it more attractive. But if you see that you don't have copper, it will make it less attractive. Personally, I like knowing where resources are before you can actually use them.

Partially for a starting location this is for Horses and Bronze. If you don't have pigs or Sheeps you might miss the horses ressource. BW is a similar lottery. If you have Copper you get a huge production boost. If you don't, you just lost beakers that might have helped somewhere else.

Copper / Iron with Mining and maybe horses with hunting would be a nice boost and favor beelining the unlocking techs. But then the tooltip for the respective ressource needs to state a 'requites <tech> to unlock <ressource>'.

An yes i got confused about my mined Uranium and being unable to built respective units...

Bringing those ressources later might 'encourage' a world builder view, save-reload (to avoid wasted hammers) or other optimisations.


P.S.: i still hate 2 calendar ressources in my capitals BFC... and a missing river...

 

[Elkad]

There seems to be so little space between the ironclad and the destroyer it's hard to figure where it won't go obsolete before you even get it. Best I can think of is put the destroyer with electricity plus require combustion, and put a new ocean steam ship at combustion or railroad. I don't know what the right thing is.

I'd settle for just a str10 5move 4cargo steam transport. Railroad, astro, coal. One new unit, and a use for coal for more than 5 minutes.

Make destroyers take combustion+astro+rifling. Prevents the combustion beeline.

Battleships Industrialism+Artillery.

On a similar subject I think a siege weapon between trebucket and cannon is needed. Like the trebucket was added because it was a pain using the catapult against cities with it's low attack power, there still isn't a good field siege weapon. Something that combines the treb and cannon. Like 8 with +50% vs. cities at gunpowder. It is historically inaccurate though as early gunpowder siege weapons were much better at attacking fortifications than in the field so as it is the game does reflect reality.

Several mods do have a Bombard at gunpowder. Some (wolfshanze for one) add a Muskets tech after that to try to keep you from getting both siege and new gunpowder units at the same time.

 

[EmperorFool]

BTW, Uranium is a special case different from Oil. Unlike Oil which requires a second technology to access it at all, you can build a Mine on Uranium as soon as you see it and immediately get the and benefits from working the plot as well as trade it away to a rival. It's only its ability to enable units that requires a second tech, Fission.

That perplexed me the first time I had no Oil (and really, really needed Destroyers). I could clearly see Uranium available in all of my cities, and the units said they required Uranium, but I couldn't build any.

I like the idea of revealing Copper at Mining or Masonry (forces you on a different path) because that would help you plan your early expansion. I hate the feeling that I'm on the brink of extinction as I'm plodding along to BW with the distinct possibility that I won't find Copper. Plus it would let you build the city that will eventually provide access to it earlier. I hate sitting around with a Settler waiting for BW to come in.

But I understand your hesitation to muck with such early game aspects, especially now that you've already toned down Slavery and Axemen.

 

[Ninja2]

I saw a mod on this forum that changed the requirements for Axemen. Basically, the price for Axemen doubled, but if you had Copper, you got a 100% production boost. So IF you had copper, the effects cancel out and you're back to vanilla, whereas if you DON'T have copper, you can still build some defensive Axemen, albeit at twice the time.

This technique could potentially be extended many times over - not sure that is relevant here, but this Axemen case might lead to fewer restarts by humans.

 

[darkedone02]

since there is global warming mod here, does having alot of forest preserves and trees help slowly make every land become grassland and plains then deserts and snow/tundra?

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Nope.

EDIT-

Not that I'm aware of at least.

 

[Col Kurtz]

I'm guessing this is part of BUG. But what do the little fists and unhappy looking people icons next to civilizations in the scoreboard. I attached a screenshot. A few have the fist, and Rome has the unhappy person too. What do these mean exactly?

since there is global warming mod here, does having alot of forest preserves and trees help slowly make every land become grassland and plains then deserts and snow/tundra?

Speaking of global warming... If you turn on rising sea levels in the game options, can cities be wiped out by new ocean squares, or does it avoid cities?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Regarding global warming, technically it's not even working at the moment. Turns out there's a problem with the version of it that's compatible with 3.19. It's also not working in all other mods that use it. I hope it will be sorted out soon but at the moment effectively GW does not exist in the mod.

Col Kurtz, the happy/angry faces are attitude indicators. If a leader is friendly you get the yellow happy face. If they're pleased you get the green happy face, cautious the greyish indifferent face, etc.
The fist tells you when a civ is in "We Have Enough On Our Hands Right Now" aka WHEOOHRN mode. Players who studied the behaviour of AIs noticed that they usually go into this mode several turns before (i.e. in preparation for) a war declaration. Sometimes it can serve as an early warning that you are going to be invaded. The reason it was included in BUG is that you can go into diplo with each leader every turn to check whether they have entered WHEOOHRN mode but it's hugely less tedious to just have the symbol appear when they enter that mode.

The little person beside the fist I'm not 100% sure about. You might want to ask EF or in the BUG forum but maybe it's indicating the civ refuses to talk?

 

[EmperorFool]

Angry citizen icon means you are that AI's worst enemy. If they also have an orange fist and are not currently at war, you might want to entertain giving in to their next demand.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Regarding global warming, technically it's not even working at the moment. Turns out there's a problem with the version of it that's compatible with 3.19. It's also not working in all other mods that use it. I hope it will be sorted out soon but at the moment effectively GW does not exist in the mod.

I'm not sure what the problem with 3.19 is but GW not happening is a "calibration" problem. Now that I'm using Excel for the math I see that the way it was originally, you could probably get as many as 6 occurrences of GW a turn, while now you'd need to pack the map with cities to get one chance of GW a turn, and if there's enough ocean then there wouldn't be enough space at all.

So I need to figure out the ratio of total map tiles to likely number of cities, the most ocean coverage you are likely to see so I can calibrate it so it's not impossible to get GW to happen on a map with small land area, but doesn't run wild if it's a land map. Also the amount of features you're likely to see generated on a map so I get calibrate how much defence they should provide.
Does anyone have that kind of information out of the map scripts that come with the game or are popular downloads?