Problems with Dschenghis Khan on Prince level

It is the age old civ trade-off of gain now vs somewhat greater gain later...


And earlier, or preferably, NOW, usually means 'better' in this game, because the mechanics are very sensitive to the 'snowball effect', where more commerce earlier gets you that key military tech you wanted that many turns earlier, and right after you get it commerce matters way less for 300 years,
or where more food earlier gets you that 3 pop whip into a granary earlier, allowing you to expand like the plague this amount of turns earlier etc etc ...


Long term gains can be very important in this game too on higher difficulty (afaik), but everything is more context sensitive the higher you push the playing level (this i do know), so as far as general advice goes, Pangea is right on the money.
 
Because a city with 9 fully grown towns is better than a city with 7 fully grown towns?

It is the age old civ trade-off of gain now vs somewhat greater gain later...
:confused: :confused: It's kind of hard to come up with any arguments here, because I have absolutely no idea what you mean... Yes, a city with 9 towns is better than a city with 7 towns, so why do you feel it's the right move to farm over a town?

This capital has +11 food working wheat+corn and 3 FP cottages, +12 once CS is in to irrigate the corn. You really don't need any more than that.

The best is getting the gain now while setting up for an even greater gain later. Letting the capital grow cottages while other cities pump out GPs and whip settlers/workers is often the best recipe for that.
 
Overlap is good...

Great explanation! I've settled now 2N of Marble.

I'm still unsure how to proceed with tech research. Mysticism for the monument first and then maybe Horseback Riding for the Keshiks? Or is that too early and I should more focus on techs that improve city infrastructure (Metal Casting for a Forge, but this tech looks very expensive)? Or maybe Iron Working to reveal iron? Or Archery for city defense?

And how important is it to get that single copper tile early (see screenshots in my previous post)?
 
Todelotti: You might want to send your recon units closer to the water, it would be useful to know if there is seafood near X2.

I will go a few tiles into the north west corner and then return and explore the coast. Might take around 20 turns however before I'm there. The other scout is far away in the eastern part of the map.
 
And earlier, or preferably, NOW, usually means 'better' in this game, because the mechanics are very sensitive to the 'snowball effect', where more commerce earlier gets you that key military tech you wanted that many turns earlier, and right after you get it commerce matters way less for 300 years,
or where more food earlier gets you that 3 pop whip into a granary earlier, allowing you to expand like the plague this amount of turns earlier etc etc ...


Long term gains can be very important in this game too on higher difficulty (afaik), but everything is more context sensitive the higher you push the playing level (this i do know), so as far as general advice goes, Pangea is right on the money.

Well, you have chop NOW with bronze vs wait and chop with math. You have build close and get an okay city up right away vs founding a far away city that will in 50 turns be MUCH better, declaring on that jerk Monty NOW vs waiting until you can totally take him out, etc etc etc. Now is better. Except when it isn't.

Usually you want a balance between some immediate benefit and some better future. If immediate was always better there would be a LOT more early severe whipping. And it would be a much more simple game.
 
:confused: :confused: It's kind of hard to come up with any arguments here, because I have absolutely no idea what you mean... Yes, a city with 9 towns is better than a city with 7 towns, so why do you feel it's the right move to farm over a town?

This capital has +11 food working wheat+corn and 3 FP cottages, +12 once CS is in to irrigate the corn. You really don't need any more than that.

The best is getting the gain now while setting up for an even greater gain later. Letting the capital grow cottages while other cities pump out GPs and whip settlers/workers is often the best recipe for that.

Because without MAXIMISING your food, you won't be able to SUPPORT 9 cottage tiles along with your hammer tiles. You could cottage a rice tile instead of farming. Rice gives health & you can trade, but if you had more than enough other rice, would you go ahead and cottage it? Or would you farm and then use that plus food to support more of other (hammers, specialists, etc)? What if the OP wants to use his capital as GP farm? I don't claim to be an expert but I have seen absolutezero do just that.
 
Great explanation! I've settled now 2N of Marble.

I'm still unsure how to proceed with tech research. Mysticism for the monument first and then maybe Horseback Riding for the Keshiks? Or is that too early and I should more focus on techs that improve city infrastructure (Metal Casting for a Forge, but this tech looks very expensive)? Or maybe Iron Working to reveal iron? Or Archery for city defense?

And how important is it to get that single copper tile early (see screenshots in my previous post)?

I would have settled one NE of that. Your capital's culture will expand giving you one flood plain to work and you would be next to another. You would have had a hill to chop for a granary. And (very minor point) one less mountain in your big fat cross.

Who is France's leader? Nappy likes to scrap and spam units. Louis likes shiny wonders and is pretty much a pushover.
 
I will go a few tiles into the north west corner and then return and explore the coast. Might take around 20 turns however before I'm there. The other scout is far away in the eastern part of the map.

I'm not sure if it is worth it now that your units are away, it was more of a tip for next time.
 
I'm still unsure how to proceed with tech research. Mysticism for the monument first and then maybe Horseback Riding for the Keshiks? Or is that too early and I should more focus on techs that improve city infrastructure (Metal Casting for a Forge, but this tech looks very expensive)? Or maybe Iron Working to reveal iron? Or Archery for city defense?

And how important is it to get that single copper tile early (see screenshots in my previous post)?
Don't forget that libraries also pop borders. As do religions if you get it from some neighbor.

There are a few possibilities here. You could go for early horseback riding and take out De Gaulle. Once you get writing you should take open borders and send a scout in to check out his lands. If he doesn't have metals, it would be a walk in the park. If he has, it is still doable, but it hurts a bit more if he builds spears.

Other option is to tech Alpha and trade for the backfill techs. There's a few decent tech traders on the map (Willem, Pericles, Asoka) and you could easily trade for archery, mysticism, masonry, fishing, sailing and hopefully Iron Working. On noble level they don't tech very fast though, so there's not a ton of trades available. A few levels higher, this becomes more powerful.

A very strong option is the Oracle. Especially if you can pull off taking Civil Service. For that you can either tech math->myst->med->PH->CoL and time some chops so that you finish the Oracle the very same turn CoL is finished. Or you can go Alpha first, then math, while hoping to trade for mysticism and med/poly and also masonry so you can get the marble boost for building the oracle. With marble and math the oracle needs only 2.5 chops, so building it is no problem at all. It's always a bit of a gamble though. Usually the Oracle doesn't go before 1000BC on noble, sometimes it might be it isn't built by 500BC, but sometimes someone surprises you and builds it very early. Going alpha first is in a way safer, because then you can see from the trade screen if anyone else has Priesthood. If they do, it might be better to chop the oracle asap to pick some other tech and not wait until you have teched CoL. But on the other hand, you will be faster to CoL and oracle->CS if you skip alpha.

Iron Working is usually a tech you trade for. The AI values it very highly and they will tech it early. Metal Casting is a good tech, but not worth teching this early. It can be a decent tech to take with the Oracle though.

Archery for city defense is not worth it. Who would be attacking you? As a tip I can tell that barbarians will not enter your borders until the average amount of cities/civ is greater than 3. On noble difficulty it will take quite a while for the AI to expand that much. You'll have chariots to counter barbs by then. And barbs should be fought outside your borders, or prevented to even appear with fogbusters. Don't let them in to pillage your improvements.

The copper tile doesn't look very attractive at the moment. If there is seafood, it is a lot more attractive. But still not a high priority as it's quite far. Dutchfire is right that you should have walked your scout by the shore to look for seafood. Sending scouts far away is not a good idea, it's better to first explore your immediate visinity, then keep them around for fog busting (preventing barbs from spawning). What lies beyond the jungle is of no concern to you at this point.

Because without MAXIMISING your food, you won't be able to SUPPORT 9 cottage tiles along with your hammer tiles. You could cottage a rice tile instead of farming. Rice gives health & you can trade, but if you had more than enough other rice, would you go ahead and cottage it? Or would you farm and then use that plus food to support more of other (hammers, specialists, etc)? What if the OP wants to use his capital as GP farm? I don't claim to be an expert but I have seen absolutezero do just that.
I count a total of -11:food: from food negative tiles in the capital's BFC. We already established that with cottages on the floodplain the city has +12 food surplus. What's the problem? Most of those food negative tiles (plains and plains hills) are too bad to be worked anyway, especially early on. With windmills/watermills they won't be as food negative. And he'll have biology for more food by the time the capital is big enough to work the entire BFC anyway.

Capital as GP farm is a rare strategy that sometimes might make sense. But I'm trying here to teach the basic strategy that is most universally useful on the most maps. Sure I could also say that what do you need cottages for when you can win the map with Keshiks and don't need any tech at all past currency, if even that. But playing a game like that would not necessarily help the OP at all with his next game, which might be on a continents map. Learning how to set up a strong bureau cap on the other hand will be helpful in most subsequent games, regardless of maptype and chosen victory condition.
 
Because a city with 9 fully grown towns is better than a city with 7 fully grown towns?

It is the age old civ trade-off of gain now vs somewhat greater gain later...

If the OP builds 3 Farms like you suggested, he'll have 2 towns less at least. Your logic is flawed and you're making no sense.
 
Who is France's leader? Nappy likes to scrap and spam units. Louis likes shiny wonders and is pretty much a pushover.

France's leader is actually De Gaulle.


From the options to continue that elitetroops suggested I decided now to go for Horseback Riding and then try to take out De Gaulle. He already expanded into my direction with his second city Orleans (which is exactly on my former X4 tile). I have started another game with random leader and got Huayna Capac. In that game I already have the Oracle and want to try the more economic path there.

My current status is now (screenshot attached):

_ 2 cities
_ 3 workers, 2 warriors, 1 scout (unfortunately a lion killed the other scout)
_ The capital has a Granary (whipped) and I'm building a library right now
_ The second city is building a Granary
_ 5 cottages (all being worked, partially by the "helper city"), all in the capital's BFC. The 6th cottage is in work right now (on a flood plain), but it won't be in the capital's BFC. Only the second city can work it. I'm not sure if I should have prefered to build a farm for the helper city. It doesn't have much food, so I think I'll need a farm soon.
_ Quarry is built and Marble is hooked up to the cities
_ Horses have a pasture and are hooked up to the cities
_ The scout discovered 3 fish tiles at the coast
_ 1 turn to go for Horseback Riding
_ I have open borders with De Gaulle, Willem, Pericles and Shaka
_ I will move the scout now from the coast to France to spy there a bit (Orleans has only one warrior, Paris is hidden)

I have some questions again:

_ The capital has one sad face (one citizen refuses to work). Somehow I have this problem in almost all games and don't know how to deal with it. I don't see additional happiness I could get and there is one "we cannot forget your cruelty..." from whipping the Granary. In addition the capital grows faster than I want (I have already assigned the overlapping grassland cottages to the capital and flood plain cottages to the helper city and work the quarry instead of the corn and wheat tiles to slow down the capital's growth). What can I do? Just ignore it and wait for happiness resources (or maybe religion)? Or should I employ a citizen as a scientist or so...?

_ So, next turn I could start to build Keshiks. Should I do that immediately in the capital (stopping the Library for now)? Or should I build a Ger (the Mongolic Stable) first? And how many Keshiks should I build? Or maybe found a third city first? I'm a bit worried that I neglect growth too much when I focus on military for a lot of turns now.

_ With that additional fish tile on the coast X2 looks like a potential food monster city candidate. But Seraiel said earlier in this thread that even 3 food resources are too much for a single city. However, in the guide I am reading there are cities mentioned that act as a "Great Person Farm" and that those cities should have as much food and citizens as possible to employ as many specialists as possible in order to produce great persons. Wouldn't X2 be a good candidate for such a city? Or is it still better to aim for 2 cities on the coast? (Not sure however where exactly. Maybe one must be a few tiles east from the coast...)
 

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Well, you have chop NOW with bronze vs wait and chop with math. Now is better. Except when it isn't.

Usually you want a balance between some immediate benefit and some better future. If immediate was always better there would be a LOT more early severe whipping. And it would be a much more simple game.

With the first 3 sentences, you're basically saying nothing because you revise what you tried to say, and what you tried to say again is an example of really bad advice. Chopping and wasting Forrests early in game is a clear sign of overreacting due to fearing the AI, while excessive whipping in early game is the way to go, because saving Forrests until Maths is very valuable. It can be good to chop out a Worker, because Workers multiply through their actions, it may be good to chop out a Granary, because Granaries multiply by giving Food, but apart from those two, that's it. CIV is no rocket science, it becomes a very logic and clear game, once one has studied it. If the AI that's near would found a city that the OP wanted to get, it would be to his advantage, because he could easily conquer that city. This concept of "enabling to AIs to do the heavy lifting one otherwise would have to do onesself" I learned from my friend WastinTime, you should at least give it a thought before you continue on screaming out your advice, because you try to get a point, while what you offer is wrong.
 
Regarding happiness, it appears your capital doesn't have a warrior, am I right? This adds "we fear for our safety" unhappiness once they grow past a certain size. Any single military unit can counter this, a warrior is best, because it's cheapest.

Early on happiness is always kind of a problem. 2 pop whipping helps a bit (whipping 2 population at once). This reduces population with 2, while adding only one unhappy face, so you can grow a bit again before getting unhappy. You should avoid 1 pop whips, because then you are still just as far from happy cap. And it's of course better to get 60 hammers for 10 turns of one unhappy face, instead of just 30.

Another way to counter unhappiness after a whip is to build another worker or a settler, this stops growth for while the unhappiness from the whip wears off. If planning a HA rush, worker is better because you need to chop forests. You can build a settler for 3rd city after the HAs are built. You'll get 2 new cities from De Gaulle anyway.

Or you can just change the tiles worked by the city and prefer hammer tiles over food tiles. I mentioned in the last post that sharing food resources between cities can be a good thing. If one city can't work it without growing into unhappiness, the other city can take it for a while.

Do you have archery? That is also needed for Keshiks.

Farms on the floodplains that aren't in capitals BFC would probably be better, that city needs to grow. As mentioned, it's better if you can do the majority of unit whipping in other cities than the capital. Whipping need a lot of food to be efficient.

That said, you can probably still get a way with one or two unit whips in capital. If you pair this up with chops, you can get 4 Keshiks very fast with two 2 pop whips, if you have math.

-Put 10-19 hammers into a Keshik, then 2 pop whip it (absolutely not 20 or more hammers, or it will become a one pop whip).
-Next turn finish chopping a forest. With 60 hammers from whip and 10 hammers invested earlier, there will be 20 hammers overflow. Add 30 hammers from chop and the next Keshik is immediately completed.
-Next turn there will be some overflow from the chop and you start building the 3rd Keshik.
-The turn after that you can again 2 pop whip it.
-The turn after that you complete yet another chop and get the fourth Keshik.

That's 4 Keshiks from one city in 5 turns. Add 2 Keshiks from another city (one 2 pop whip and one chop) and you probably have enough to take out a noble AI at this stage of the game, unless he has spears.

If you don't have math, it's a bit slower as you only get 20 hammers/forest. And as Seraiel says above, you should not chop too many forests before maths. Better to save them until you have Math.

When I HA rush, I usually have several workers dedicated to chopping, and most forests have been prechopped before I get HBR (chop 2 turns, then stop and go chop 2 turns in the next forest, then I only need one turn of chopping in each forest after HBR is in). But on noble you don't have to go through all that tedious micro, because you don't need quite as many HAs.
 
France's leader is actually De Gaulle.

From the options to continue that elitetroops suggested I decided now to go for Horseback Riding and then try to take out De Gaulle. He already expanded into my direction with his second city Orleans (which is exactly on my former X4 tile). I have started another game with random leader and got Huayna Capac. In that game I already have the Oracle and want to try the more economic path there.

How unfortunate, that you started a new game, De Gaulle founded that city to your advantage, and you should have been happy about it, but ok. Try to play slowly this time, and play a different game to have fun in the time that you're waiting for advice. Once you do this, you'll be catapulted to Monarch at least.

My current status is now (screenshot attached):

_ 2 cities
_ 3 workers, 2 warriors, 1 scout (unfortunately a lion killed the other scout)
_ The capital has a Granary (whipped) and I'm building a library right now
_ The second city is building a Granary
_ 5 cottages (all being worked, partially by the "helper city"), all in the capital's BFC. The 6th cottage is in work right now (on a flood plain), but it won't be in the capital's BFC. Only the second city can work it. I'm not sure if I should have prefered to build a farm for the helper city. It doesn't have much food, so I think I'll need a farm soon.
_ Quarry is built and Marble is hooked up to the cities
_ Horses have a pasture and are hooked up to the cities
_ The scout discovered 3 fish tiles at the coast
_ 1 turn to go for Horseback Riding
_ I have open borders with De Gaulle, Willem, Pericles and Shaka
_ I will move the scout now from the coast to France to spy there a bit (Orleans has only one warrior, Paris is hidden)

3 Workers for 2 cities are too much, try to think heavily about your Worker actions, and only do the most necessary stuff. It's not too bad, if your cities work some unimproved tiles in the very beginning, it's only bad if you got lots of unimproved tiles later. 1 Worker + 1 extra for the capital is the rule of the thumb, but initially, you can very well simply improve 4 tiles of your capital with your first Worker, and then let him hop over to city 2. Your capital shouldn't grow larger than size 4 very early, so you can get along with those 4 tiles 'til, let's say, 2000 BC. 'til then, you can get 3 cities while having 1 Worker at least, and every city is gonna have 2-4 improved tiles, if you i. e. don't build any roads (you don't need roads early, except your city is very near, and you wanna establish a Traderoute because it has no River-connection. Cities that are further away don't deserve a road connection early, you'll just have to live with the city having no Traderoute until you get Sailing and Rivers that aren't in your territory will connect it. )

It's also too early to build a Library yet. You should expand to 3 cities, before you build one. The reason is, that Libraries are very expensive buildings, especially in the beginning. Ofc a Library is great to have in the capital because it allows hiring Scientists to create a Great Scientist and becaue it pushes research, but expanding to 3 cities is even more important. Once you've got those, your other cities can take over production of Settlers and Workers so you can keep expanding, while you divert your capital to building the Library, to give you the things I mentioned.

If your capital is already size 5, you let it grow too much, and produced too few Settlers. Size 3-4 is perfect for up until the 3rd city, sometimes it's even advisable to stay that small a little longer, but expanding always has the greatest priority in CIV. Cities are power, and every city contributes to your empire, once you got Currency and a Traderoute (connection between the city and another city, preferably a foreign one) . The expert players in these forums are heavily trying to get the most cities that the game allows for at every time. The only thing when it's not worth to expand, is, when expanding would get more expensive than a Settler, those are super-rare cases though, where one would needs extreme military to conquer an opponent. If you play well, that should never happen.

Fishes are great sources of Food, but building Workboats slows down the improvement of a city very much. You should always try to get the landlocked cities first because of this. If you can get a city that has Corn or Pigs, forget about the 3 Fishes city for a moment, if an AI builds it for you, great, then you conquer it, if not, found it later, when your empire's capacity is greater.

I have some questions again:

_ The capital has one sad face (one citizen refuses to work). Somehow I have this problem in almost all games and don't know how to deal with it. I don't see additional happiness I could get and there is one "we cannot forget your cruelty..." from whipping the Granary. In addition the capital grows faster than I want (I have already assigned the overlapping grassland cottages to the capital and flood plain cottages to the helper city and work the quarry instead of the corn and wheat tiles to slow down the capital's growth). What can I do? Just ignore it and wait for happiness resources (or maybe religion)? Or should I employ a citizen as a scientist or so...?
Simply build Settlers and Workers in the beginning and keep your city at size 3-4, until you got more Happiness. Cities consume all surplus :food: when you build those two units, so they cannot grow into :mad: .

So, next turn I could start to build Keshiks. Should I do that immediately in the capital (stopping the Library for now)? Or should I build a Ger (the Mongolic Stable) first? And how many Keshiks should I build? Or maybe found a third city first? I'm a bit worried that I neglect growth too much when I focus on military for a lot of turns now.

Small cities are great in CIV, because they cost less maintenance. That's not so important for your capital, because your capital has the Palace, which reduces maintenance significantly, so try to let your city grow to happy-cap once you got like 3-5 cities. When you build military, your city can grow, so building military and Growth doesn't contradict each other. Expanding and growing does, but expansion should always be given the highest priority. Question is: Can you expand cheaper with Keshiks than you can with Settlers. If the question is yes, go for Keshiks. You should finish the Library though, because a Library in the capital is mandatory.

_ With that additional fish tile on the coast X2 looks like a potential food monster city candidate. But Seraiel said earlier in this thread that even 3 food resources are too much for a single city. However, in the guide I am reading there are cities mentioned that act as a "Great Person Farm" and that those cities should have as much food and citizens as possible to employ as many specialists as possible in order to produce great persons. Wouldn't X2 be a good candidate for such a city? Or is it still better to aim for 2 cities on the coast? (Not sure however where exactly. Maybe one must be a few tiles east from the coast...)

One city should have as much Food as possible to work as a Great Person (GP) Farm, that's right. If you want to assign X2 for that, it's fine. I usually try to get more cities, and work with multiple smaller GP-farms, so instead of hiring 8 Specialists, which requires you to run Caste System, I go for 4 cities and hire 2 Specialists in them, which lets me stay in Slavery and only requires me to build some Libraries.

The best tactic to produce GPs, is to have many larg(er) cities, and trigger a Golden Age with consuming one GP, then switch to Caste-System + Pacifism to greatly enhance GP-production (the Golden Age (GA) also gives +100% on GP-production, so you can get up to +300% with the NE and +200% in normal cities) , and then hire as many Specialists as possible in all of them, while starving them to the point at which they would lose a population point at the next turn. Ofc you don't want them to shrink, but you want to maximise the bonus you can get from the GA.

Hth.
 
Haha, we give contradicting advice with Seraiel. :D Seraiel is without doubt a stronger player than I am, so it might very well be worth listening to him as well. ;)

But I have a couple of questions for you Sera,
3 Workers for 2 cities are too much,
Do you think this is too much also when going for a Keshik rush? I often have 3-4 workers with 2 cities when going for a HA rush, because of all the chopping. Though some of these workers are mostly stolen, not built...

You should expand to 3 cities...
Another thing I rarely do when HA/Keshik rushing... Isn't it better to focus efforts on getting the HAs built asap and getting the AI capital as soon as possible? A capital is most likely a stronger city site than any 3rd city you can build yourself.

Btw. I think he meant he started a new game to play on the side and would continue playing this slowly.
 
Haha, we give contradicting advice with Seraiel. :D Seraiel is without doubt a stronger player than I am, so it might very well be worth listening to him as well. ;)

Thx, but where do we give contradicting advice? Your post is on micro when whipping, mine is on basics.

But I have a couple of questions for you Sera,

Do you think this is too much also when going for a Keshik rush? I often have 3-4 workers with 2 cities when going for a HA rush, because of all the chopping. Though some of these workers are mostly stolen, not built...

Stealing Workers is something different, but if not stealing them, whipping the HAs is more efficient than producing too many Workers. 3 Workers is still ok, but 4 is definately too much for 2 cities, unless playing Quick Speed. One needs to consider, that one will probably steal more Workers than needed during the war, so every Worker built early must be able to produce at least 2 HAs alone, or he's a waste.

Another thing I rarely do when HA/Keshik rushing... Isn't it better to focus efforts on getting the HAs built asap and getting the AI capital as soon as possible? A capital is most likely a stronger city site than any 3rd city you can build yourself.

Btw. I think he meant he started a new game to play on the side and would continue playing this slowly.

Maybe my advice wasn't on spot, because I only play maps that are extraordinarily good, so city 3 in my case would still be a very good city. It's also different though, because I play Deity, so I cannot rush the AI with only a handful of HAs, like he can.

Looking at the map, only Corn-city and Pigs + Deers + Plains-Hill are very good, so those I'd settle.

Best attack dates I ever got with HAs was 10 HAs at 1700 BC, if you can beat that, staying at 2 cities is superior. That's very well possible, because even on Deity, the 3rd city would need to build at least 2.5 HAs to explain investing the Settler on it, that's very difficult, as my experience is, that even city 2 already has problems to produce more than 3 HAs for the Rush. It must be said though, that a 3 city empire will be superior if the war takes a little longer so that Reinforcements will play a role, and ofc, having 1 more city at the end of the war is also good, so it's a question of if one can conquer the rival CIV with 9-12 HAs, because then, one could let the capital build the Settler afterwards. My experience is no, so 2 cities probably gives a better attack date, but the outcome is probably still worse.

Maybe it's also a question of timing though, because one can produce 2 Settlers until 2400 BC. Options for the cities 'til then would be to grow (with good starts into :mad: ) or to get some more Infrastructure. Only the first will help the HA-rush, and I usually try to avoid angry citizens by any means possible. That's probably, why I REX to 3 cities, while you stay at 2. Maybe you simply tech HBR earlier though. I always tech Maths before HBR, because I try to get Oracle Currency on top (3 cities + Oracle Currency = HoF #1 in 90%) , and because Maths is such an important tech, especially if researched before 2000 BC. If you got for HBR without Maths, you'll have the better attack date, but you'll have less Forrests. Evaluating what is better, is very hard imo, later Forrests can be a bigger capital due to less whips. As it's hard to keep up with Deity-AIs anyhow, having a bigger capital seems very attractive to me.
 
The contradictory advice was mainly about the 3rd city...

every Worker built early must be able to produce at least 2 HAs alone, or he's a waste.
The workers I build are of course built before I can build HAs and used for prechopping, so in that way it's not directly away from HA production. But yeah, instead of building a 3rd worker, it might be better to build a couple of chariots and use those to steal the 3rd and 4th worker.
 
Maybe it's also a question of timing though, because one can produce 2 Settlers until 2400 BC. Options for the cities 'til then would be to grow (with good starts into :mad: ) or to get some more Infrastructure. Only the first will help the HA-rush, and I usually try to avoid angry citizens by any means possible. That's probably, why I REX to 3 cities, while you stay at 2. Maybe you simply tech HBR earlier though. I always tech Maths before HBR, because I try to get Oracle Currency on top (3 cities + Oracle Currency = HoF #1 in 90%) , and because Maths is such an important tech, especially if researched before 2000 BC. If you got for HBR without Maths, you'll have the better attack date, but you'll have less Forrests. Evaluating what is better, is very hard imo, later Forrests can be a bigger capital due to less whips. As it's hard to keep up with Deity-AIs anyhow, having a bigger capital seems very attractive to me.
I like getting math in time for the rush as well. But maybe one big difference is also that on deity the HA rush is just one step on the way to victory. On immortal and below it can be the final step, which is the kind of games I've played lately when HA rushing. If the intention is to take out the entire map with HAs, then Oracle Currency isn't as important and it is even an option to bulb math.

(To OP: this reply was kind of off topic. I don't think you should try to take out this entire map with HAs, but take out De Gaulle while you keep setting up the empire for a strong economy later.)
 
The contradictory advice was mainly about the 3rd city...


The workers I build are of course built before I can build HAs and used for prechopping, so in that way it's not directly away from HA production. But yeah, instead of building a 3rd worker, it might be better to build a couple of chariots and use those to steal the 3rd and 4th worker.

Chariots are also very good for the HAs that fail and only wound the enemy. Often, they can replace a complete HA, because the only thing for a unit needed is to win, doesn't matter what type of unit it is, and as HAs fail in about 30-50% of the cases, Chariots can be absolutely adequate for the cleanup.

I'm not that good at choking and have the experience that all AIs I choke simply build billions of Archers, so I rarely do it. Again different on Immortal ofc, because on Immortal, it's possible to get peace after stealing Workers, which on Deity is usually impossible until Alpha, or only possible with a lucky random event or the Aggressive AI setting.
 
With the first 3 sentences, you're basically saying nothing because you revise what you tried to say, and what you tried to say again is an example of really bad advice. Chopping and wasting Forrests early in game is a clear sign of overreacting due to fearing the AI, while excessive whipping in early game is the way to go, because saving Forrests until Maths is very valuable. It can be good to chop out a Worker, because Workers multiply through their actions, it may be good to chop out a Granary, because Granaries multiply by giving Food, but apart from those two, that's it. CIV is no rocket science, it becomes a very logic and clear game, once one has studied it. If the AI that's near would found a city that the OP wanted to get, it would be to his advantage, because he could easily conquer that city. This concept of "enabling to AIs to do the heavy lifting one otherwise would have to do onesself" I learned from my friend WastinTime, you should at least give it a thought before you continue on screaming out your advice, because you try to get a point, while what you offer is wrong.

You keep setting up and knocking down those strawmen. I only said I would cottage riverside grassland first, so I could use the excess food for production tiles. You generally want to be able to produce things in your capital; buildings, troops, wealth, i.e. something. I noticed in the game you so proudly posted your capital had a bunch of buildings. And I only brought up chopping as an example of why getting something NOW is not always better than WAITING (in this case for math).
 
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