Problems with Dschenghis Khan on Prince level

Well, I hate having to farm over cottages when I don't have enough food to run scientists and still build things. And his capital has so much food he should be whipping a lot to get himself set up. In any case, he needs to build some mines.
I would hate having to farm over cottages in my capital as well, but so far that has never happened. You can run scientists elsewhere. And he should get one mine, not mines. Those plains hills are not worth working. There's plenty of forests for production.

I'm guessing you are trying to build too much in your capital if you feel that way.
 
That's what helper cities are for. The capitol can whip using the wheat + corn while another city or two grow the cottages. The same can be done with working 2 scientists if you need to do that in the capitol to get an early academy. Using farms and whipping at larger sizes is much less efficient.

And once you get the happy cap increased you want to grow your bureau capitol as much as possible and stay away from whips and specialists (except in very specific circumstances).

You are probably building too many buildings too. Bureau cap needs a granary and science multipliers (sometimes including monasteries) - everything else is situational and generally only done to address happiness or health issues.
 
An interesting start for a leader like Genghis Khan. (imho, the harderst leader to play)
Shouldn't be the initial tech path Mining -> Bronze Working instead of Agriculture -> Pottery/Animal Husbandry?
Let the capital grow to 4 (there are enough +3 food tiles) and then whip 1 or 2 workers and start chopping.
In the current situation (building a settler), the IMP trait only gives +1 :hammers:. That's not optimal.
 
He can cottage PLENTY of green riverside tiles. When his happy cap jumps to 14 when he builds the Pyramids it will take him forever to grow his capital into all his useful tiles if he doesn't take advantage of all his food.

Take a look at these screens:

Spoiler :



A screenshot from a Standard / Normal / Domination game I played. The capital has much less Food and even less good tiles, still it's size 11 at 1 AD. It built a lot of buildings, and whipping it would have been totaly counter-productive.



Showing my empire at 1 AD, being at 11 cities conducting 359 :science: / turn. 11 cities at 1 AD on Deity is a lot, so you can't say, I didn't whip enough, I killed 3 civs 'til that time!



Showing a capital from a Large / Epic / Spacerace I played. City again has a lot less Food, especially with the Gold draining on it, still, it's size 12 at 10 AD. 10 AD still is early, so you really cannot say, that a city which has 3 times the surplus of this one, would need forever to grow to size 14, it would probably reach it before 1000 BC if managed well.



Showing the empire of the game at the same time. 8 cities conducting 290 :science: / turn. Still having in mind, that I peacefully rexed to those 8 cities in that game, which is a lot more expensive than conquering with War Chariots, those 8 cities are even more than the 11 cities from the game before, so again, you cannot say I didn't whip enough, 8 peacefully gotten cities at 1 AD is great on Deity.

You really have a misconception of how a capital or an empire should work. I posted these screens as help. You can easily learn by just looking at them, and keeping in mind, that a capital should be whipped as little as possible, and that that also is possible, and also, that only very few buildings are really needed. Compare with your games if you want, and you'll see, that I'm talking the truth.
 
An interesting start for a leader like Genghis Khan. (imho, the harderst leader to play)
Shouldn't be the initial tech path Mining -> Bronze Working instead of Agriculture -> Pottery/Animal Husbandry?
Let the capital grow to 4 (there are enough +3 food tiles) and then whip 1 or 2 workers and start chopping.
In the current situation (building a settler), the IMP trait only gives +1 :hammers:. That's not optimal.

Genghis is definately not the hardest leader with Gers and Keshiks, he can get the HE without even going to war, and IMP is a good trait. At least, Genghis is better than Hammurabi for example, with his Crapmen and unnecessary ORG + and a completely useless UB.

Also, improving the Food here is a lot better than going for early BW. Whips without a Granary aren't too efficient, but improved Wheat and Corn are amazing tiles. Just think, Wheat is +3 :food: , you'd need to work 3 unimproved Floodplains to get the same!

Pottery is also definately needed, because Palace-only-commerce sucks.

What would have been an option, were BW instead of AH and then 4 -> 2pop whip the Settlers for the block. With building a Granary in advance, that wouldd also be very efficient, so the OP can actually still think about going BW. Early Alpha is probably as good though.
 
My comments on the Egyptian screenshots.
1) You haven't built a single settler.
2) The competition is over. You have 3x more cities than every other civ.
3) Two scientist slots are being wasted, because of the cottage obsession.
 
Bureau cities get 1.5x commerce. Cottages provide commerce, scientist don't. Without Mids, cottages provide more beakers than scientists in ANY city (assuming some growth here). There of course should be a city or two producing science with scientists; but this is because of great scientists, not because of basic scientists. In a Mids game, many cities can have scientists, but not the bureau capital. Finally scientists cost food, and cottages are food neutral (flood plain or sugar cottages are even food positive).
Truly finally, seraiel is way better than I am, and I can pretty conclusively say that I am way better than you.
 
Shouldn't be the initial tech path Mining -> Bronze Working instead of Agriculture -> Pottery/Animal Husbandry?
Let the capital grow to 4 (there are enough +3 food tiles) and then whip 1 or 2 workers and start chopping.
This is a big misconception that probably distorts the way you value tiles a lot. An unimproved floodplain is not +3 food. It is +1 food, because the citizen working it eats 2 of the food it produces. Farmed wet wheat or dry corn on the other hand is +3 food, which makes the tiles 3 times as strong as an unimproved floodplain. In reality the real gain is way more than 3x what you get of an unimproved floodplain, because you grow onto other tiles faster to gain even more food surplus.
 
Thanks to all so far! The discussion and arguments are unbelievable helpful for me, I learned more from this single thread than from weeks of trial and error!

I'm sorry to say, but they are all bad... First rule of settling: Always settle with food in first ring! (Okay, make that "whenever possible", it's not always possible, but most of the time it is.) This means settle next to a food resource. A city needs food to be able to do anything at all and it takes forever to get a border pop. This rules out all but X2. But X2 is too far away for a 2nd city, actually they all are... And btw. don't settle on floodplains. They are one of the best tiles to work and you ruin them by building a city there.

After settling next to food, improve the food resources immediately. You should have a worker ready to start doing this on the same turn you settle.

The map seems a bit problematic as it doesn't have any really good spots for a 2nd city... I'd consider 2N of marble. You can farm the floodplain NW of marble and it can help the capital grow cottages. If you cottage the floodplain north of capital, the new city can work that immediately upon settling, in case capital isn't big enough to work it. Settling on plains hills is very good as you get an extra hammer in the city tile. That's actually the only thing plains hills are really good for...

1E if X1 is a very good spot, just not yet for your 2nd city.

Where is your worker btw? Is it roading the corn? You don't need a road there in a very long time. It should be building more cottages.

That all makes sense! When I posted my screenshot shortly after that I thought, "wait... I don't have CREative trait. How do I get the food into my second ring if I don't expand without some building, probably a monument? And I don't have the tech yet that allows me to build the monument. All that - researching and building - will take a lot of time before I reach the food in the second ring to grow the city..." The two spots you suggested - 2N of marble and 1E of X1 - are btw almost the tiles that the AI recommends with the blue circles (the AI suggests 3N of marble). The settler is finished in the meantime and heads towards north.

Yes, the worker was roading the corn on that screenshot. In the meantime I understand that this was a waste because that road only adds one health point from the corn and health isn't a problem at all at the moment.

I also followed your advice to skip building quarry+road for the moment and cottaged the flood plains (the third one is cottaged right now and the capital is working on the other two cottages).

Two questions:

1) Why is a second city being too far away from the capital a bad thing? Because of maintenance costs? Or because it takes too much time and too many worker turns to build roads connecting the cities? Somehow I thought I must run for the valuable resources and then perhaps fill the land between the distant cities later with my third, fourth city, etc.

2) I actually ruled out 2N of marble when I tried to find the candidate places for the second city because its workable area would have overlapping tiles with the capital (6 tiles would overlap if I don't miscount). Isn't that a bad thing?


You'll get the Horses south of your capital once the city pops borders again, which will be quite fast because it's the capital having the Palace. Nn to get the other Horses with X1. Better settle 1E of X1, so you have the Corn in the 1st ring, like elitetroops already wrote.

... 2nd city 1E of X4 ... 3rd city 1 NW of Cows ... 4th city 1 SE of X2 ... 5th and 6th city then to catch the Rice resources ...

I had the wrong idea that the horses must be a workable tile to get that resource. I understand now that I only need to build a pasture and a road. (The capital is expanding in 12 turns, then I should have the horses in reach.) But I won't have the production and commerce bonus from the horse tile, right? I thought I should get this bonus with my second city (from the other horse tile then).

You meant "2nd city 1E of X1" (not X4), right?


My current map and tech tree is attached (the marble at the bottom is the marble next to the capital from the earlier screenshots, nothing new in the south).

I'm wondering now what to do with that copper tile in the north west which is quite far away but it's the only copper on the visible map. I've put an X5 on the spot where I wanted to settle at some point (probably better 1E of X5 to have the rice in the first ring), but at which point? Don't I need copper quickly to be able to build Axemen?

And a question about that new Gems tile that became visible: Is it worth to head for this tile because of its huge commerce bonus?

Regarding research: I'm researching Writing right now. But how would I proceed after that? I thought I must flick in a quick research of Mysticism in order to be able to build monuments. How could I otherwise ensure that my new cities (without palace) expand in a reasonable time? (BTW: I was lucky and got Pottery gifted from a village.)
 

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1) Why is a second city being too far away from the capital a bad thing? Because of maintenance costs? Or because it takes too much time and too many worker turns to build roads connecting the cities?
Both. But maintenance costs are not that bad on the lower levels, so you can get away with settling further away as well. But if you for example are going for a HA rush, then spending 10 turns with your worker building roads will slow down your attack date a lot.


2) I actually ruled out 2N of marble when I tried to find the candidate places for the second city because its workable area would have overlapping tiles with the capital (6 tiles would overlap if I don't miscount). Isn't that a bad thing?
Overlap is good, especially with your capital. The reason is cottages. I'll try to explain...

Why cottages? Your capital gets a +50% commerce boost from Bureaucracy, and usually you aim to build an academy in the capital with a Great Scientist for +50% research. Academy is best in capital, because of the commerce boost from Bureau. Add in a library and an university and you have +100% boost to research (50%+25%+25%). By the time you get Printing Press each town will produce 6:commerce:, this is multiplied by 1.5 from bureau and becomes 9:commerce:, which goes through library, university and academy for +100% boost and becomes 18:science:/turn. That's from a single town. I mentioned that a decent mid-late game cap has 10 towns. That's 180:science:/turn, add in the commerce from palace, trade routes and other tiles you are working and it easily becomes 250:science:/turn with slider at 100%. Throw in Oxford university and now you are making 375:science:/turn in your capital alone.

Now look back to the 920AD screenshot you posted in the beginning of this thread. With slider at 50%, your entire empire produces <100:science:/turn, so <200 beakers if you turn up slider to max. Your capital alone could make twice as much with properly developed cottages and Oxford. Now you might be pointing out that you didn't have Printing Press and Education by that date, but in case your capital is improved properly, you are researching so much faster that you would have. Players like Seraiel can routinely have Oxford built in the BCs. That takes quite a lot of practice (and a strong starting location), but having it before 1000 AD is very doable even for the more novice player. (Note that Oxford is by no means required in every game, often it is better to just put those hammers into military units and kill everybody.)

So, how do you get 10 or more towns in capital? A cottage must be worked by the city to grow. On normal speed Cottage->Hamlet takes 10 turns, Hamlet->Village takes 20 turns and Village->Town takes 40 turns, total time for cottage to become a town is 70 turns. Leaving it up to the capital to grow 10+ cottages would mean that it can start working the last of them very late. It takes long to get happy cap up, you need to whip some basic infra and maybe a settler early and the city must grow.

This is where helper cities come in. 2N of marble can work 4 tiles in the capital's BFC that should be cottaged (FP + 3 riverside grassland tiles). The capital has 6 other tiles that are good for cottaging (grasslands and floodplains). So until the capital grows past size 8 (food+6 cottages), the city north of marble can work and develop 4 cottages that the capital can work later. After that, every time the capital grows it will get a cottage that is already developed into at least a hamlet, maybe even a village already, which means that the new pop in capital immediately gets a great boost from bureau and academy. Without helper cities, you would always start with a new cottage from 0. By the time the capital is big enough to work all cottages, they can all already be villages and you are 30+ turns closer to towns.

Sometimes it might make sense to settle even more helper cities, if there is a lot of cottageable land. I should point out that the setup here is not ideal, because the helper city would get riverside cottages while the capital has a few non riverside cottages that produce one less commerce. Because of bureau and academy bonus in capital, it's better if capital can work the strongest cottages and helper cities can grow the non riverside cottages before they are assigned to the capital. If possible.

Hope that makes at least some sense...

There are other reasons why overlap is good also. Sharing resources is nice, for example. Especially if you have a lot of food in some city. Sometimes you have so much that you cannot work them all without growing into unhappiness, then you can borrow some to another city, and borrow them back if you have to regrow quickly after a whip. Close cities also makes worker logistics a lot easier.
 
Truly finally, seraiel is way better than I am, and I can pretty conclusively say that I am way better than you.
I had some responses ready, but this is Todelotti's thread, so I won't further derail it.
Maybe he is more persistent than the other "students" from a few weeks ago.
 
Take a look at these screens:

Spoiler :



A screenshot from a Standard / Normal / Domination game I played. The capital has much less Food and even less good tiles, still it's size 11 at 1 AD. It built a lot of buildings, and whipping it would have been totaly counter-productive.



Showing my empire at 1 AD, being at 11 cities conducting 359 :science: / turn. 11 cities at 1 AD on Deity is a lot, so you can't say, I didn't whip enough, I killed 3 civs 'til that time!



Showing a capital from a Large / Epic / Spacerace I played. City again has a lot less Food, especially with the Gold draining on it, still, it's size 12 at 10 AD. 10 AD still is early, so you really cannot say, that a city which has 3 times the surplus of this one, would need forever to grow to size 14, it would probably reach it before 1000 BC if managed well.



Showing the empire of the game at the same time. 8 cities conducting 290 :science: / turn. Still having in mind, that I peacefully rexed to those 8 cities in that game, which is a lot more expensive than conquering with War Chariots, those 8 cities are even more than the 11 cities from the game before, so again, you cannot say I didn't whip enough, 8 peacefully gotten cities at 1 AD is great on Deity.

You really have a misconception of how a capital or an empire should work. I posted these screens as help. You can easily learn by just looking at them, and keeping in mind, that a capital should be whipped as little as possible, and that that also is possible, and also, that only very few buildings are really needed. Compare with your games if you want, and you'll see, that I'm talking the truth.

Good enough for 5th place. Congrats.

Moderator Action: Please spare us the sarcasm.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I guess my "misconception" is that I had not heard that there is only one path when playing C-IV.
 
Fantastic post elitetroops :thumbsup:

schadenfreude, score isn't an indication of how well you are doing, at least in the early to middle stage of the game on the higher levels. Experienced players can be bottom-ish in score, and still know that they are in a winning position because the early game, the first 100 turns, are well played.

There are certainly many ways to play Civ4, no doubt about it, but some things are simply not good, or relatively poor, and the capital is the one city that you absolutely want to grow big, so mercilessly whipping it isn't ideal. Read the post above by elitetroops as he goes into great detail for why you want a big capital.
 
Todelotti: You might want to send your recon units closer to the water, it would be useful to know if there is seafood near X2.
 
I came in here hoping to do.... something elitetroops did way better than I ever could. /slowclap man great post, just what he needs. Bascis like that will take him all the way up to immortal.
Maybe I can have something usefull to say when he starts to fight people -HULKSMASH-
 
Fantastic post elitetroops :thumbsup:

schadenfreude, score isn't an indication of how well you are doing, at least in the early to middle stage of the game on the higher levels. Experienced players can be bottom-ish in score, and still know that they are in a winning position because the early game, the first 100 turns, are well played.

There are certainly many ways to play Civ4, no doubt about it, but some things are simply not good, or relatively poor, and the capital is the one city that you absolutely want to grow big, so mercilessly whipping it isn't ideal. Read the post above by elitetroops as he goes into great detail for why you want a big capital.

I know early-mid game score doesn't show how well you are doing on higher levels. I was just giving him crap.

Moderator Action: Please do not start a trolling episode here by giving anyone "crap". You should understand that other cultures will not understand this phrase and could read it inappropriately.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I never called for merciless whipping in the capital. Just maybe some whipping to get a granary, some workers, the half dozen settlers out, and maybe a library & forge, for this NOBLE game. I did not state "don't build cottages". I stated I prefer to be able to support MORE cottages/mined hills/specialists by growing the capital as large as possible. I suppose there is no harm in cottaging floodplains until you need them as farms later; it is just that I have difficulty farming over nice town$, even though I feel it is the right move.

I also would not overlap much on Noble. Maybe that is ingraining a bad habit for when he is attempting to tackle deity. But it seems different levels require different tactics. I would never propose putting a first city so far to the North on a higher level; on Noble though, I think it is the right call.
 
Truly finally, seraiel is way better than I am, and I can pretty conclusively say that I am way better than you.

Moderator Action: A remark to all: The strategy and tips forum is not for determining who is the best player, it is for discussing strategy. Players of all difficulty and skill levels are and should be welcome to contribute and to learn. Constructive criticism of points made by others is welcome, putting someone down not.

Thanks, and happy civving

Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Why would you want to farm over towns if you (or an AI) have spent 70 turns on it? Size alone doesn't matter, but how you use it (steady..).
 
Why would you want to farm over towns if you (or an AI) have spent 70 turns on it? Size alone doesn't matter, but how you use it (steady..).

Because a city with 9 fully grown towns is better than a city with 7 fully grown towns?

It is the age old civ trade-off of gain now vs somewhat greater gain later...
 
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