Problems with Dschenghis Khan on Prince level

[Seraiel]

You keep setting up and knocking down those strawmen. I only said I would cottage riverside grassland first, so I could use the excess food for production tiles. You generally want to be able to produce things in your capital; buildings, troops, wealth, i.e. something. I noticed in the game you so proudly posted your capital had a bunch of buildings. And I only brought up chopping as an example of why getting something NOW is not always better than WAITING (in this case for math).

Don't call my arguments strawmen, they are well formulated, and before dismissing them, you should think about them, because you want to get a better player, not me.

Working production tiles in that capital is totally unattractive, as elitetroops already explained multiple times. The buildings I produced in my capitals, were produced via the whip, not via working hills. Building Wealth in the capital is unattractive for most cases too, and troops can be chopped / whipped too, so again, no need to work bad tiles.

Also: I can be proud for my play, because I put work in it and improving.

If chopping is the example you chose for getting something rather now than later, then you chose a very bad example. I'm also able to perfectly read, what you're writing, so no need to write in capital letters for me or anybody else.

 

[schadenfreude]

France's leader is actually De Gaulle.


From the options to continue that elitetroops suggested I decided now to go for Horseback Riding and then try to take out De Gaulle. He already expanded into my direction with his second city Orleans (which is exactly on my former X4 tile). I have started another game with random leader and got Huayna Capac. In that game I already have the Oracle and want to try the more economic path there.

My current status is now (screenshot attached):

_ 2 cities
_ 3 workers, 2 warriors, 1 scout (unfortunately a lion killed the other scout)
_ The capital has a Granary (whipped) and I'm building a library right now
_ The second city is building a Granary
_ 5 cottages (all being worked, partially by the "helper city"), all in the capital's BFC. The 6th cottage is in work right now (on a flood plain), but it won't be in the capital's BFC. Only the second city can work it. I'm not sure if I should have prefered to build a farm for the helper city. It doesn't have much food, so I think I'll need a farm soon.
_ Quarry is built and Marble is hooked up to the cities
_ Horses have a pasture and are hooked up to the cities
_ The scout discovered 3 fish tiles at the coast
_ 1 turn to go for Horseback Riding
_ I have open borders with De Gaulle, Willem, Pericles and Shaka
_ I will move the scout now from the coast to France to spy there a bit (Orleans has only one warrior, Paris is hidden)

I have some questions again:

_ The capital has one sad face (one citizen refuses to work). Somehow I have this problem in almost all games and don't know how to deal with it. I don't see additional happiness I could get and there is one "we cannot forget your cruelty..." from whipping the Granary. In addition the capital grows faster than I want (I have already assigned the overlapping grassland cottages to the capital and flood plain cottages to the helper city and work the quarry instead of the corn and wheat tiles to slow down the capital's growth). What can I do? Just ignore it and wait for happiness resources (or maybe religion)? Or should I employ a citizen as a scientist or so...?

_ So, next turn I could start to build Keshiks. Should I do that immediately in the capital (stopping the Library for now)? Or should I build a Ger (the Mongolic Stable) first? And how many Keshiks should I build? Or maybe found a third city first? I'm a bit worried that I neglect growth too much when I focus on military for a lot of turns now.

_ With that additional fish tile on the coast X2 looks like a potential food monster city candidate. But Seraiel said earlier in this thread that even 3 food resources are too much for a single city. However, in the guide I am reading there are cities mentioned that act as a "Great Person Farm" and that those cities should have as much food and citizens as possible to employ as many specialists as possible in order to produce great persons. Wouldn't X2 be a good candidate for such a city? Or is it still better to aim for 2 cities on the coast? (Not sure however where exactly. Maybe one must be a few tiles east from the coast...)

Hmm... Here I thought THIS game you were on the economic path! Feel free to post the Huayna game too. If you build all the world's wonders make sure you don't get attacked...

You are doing fine. I still like your third city spot X1 (don't know if it still is your choice) up by the stone and horses and corn. You have such a good financial start that you should be able to afford that moderately far off city. That and maybe one more city and then time to teach De Gaulle who is boss.

If you can, get open borders with France and scout out their territory. Attempt to find out if he has bronze or iron. Getting Alphabet yourself will show you his tech. Even if you don't have iron working you may be able to figure out where he has iron. You might see a mysterious mine on flat land. If he has metal and his cities are all on hills, it will be much tougher to take him out. You will still be able to do it, but you will have 2-3x as many losses. You may be able to get a Keshik on it the first move of war.

 

[Seraiel]

Hmm... Here I thought THIS game you were on the economic path! Feel free to post the Huayna game too. If you build all the world's wonders make sure you don't get attacked...

Neither spamming World Wonders is advisable, nor has it to do anything with being attacked. It depends on the diplomacy, the power-rating and the luck if one gets attacked.

You are doing fine. I still like your third city spot X1 (don't know if it still is your choice) up by the stone and horses and corn. You have such a good financial start that you should be able to afford that moderately far off city. That and maybe one more city and then time to teach De Gaulle who is boss.

Corn should be in the first Ring, and he doesn't need the Horses. Getting Corn only after a Borderpop for a tile that's merely better than a green mine is a very bad trade-off. The city also isn't far away, and maintenance on Noble is low too.

If you can, get open borders with France and scout out their territory. Attempt to find out if he has bronze or iron. Getting Alphabet yourself will show you his tech. Even if you don't have iron working you may be able to figure out where he has iron. You might see a mysterious mine on flat land. If he has metal and his cities are all on hills, it will be much tougher to take him out. You will still be able to do it, but you will have 2-3x as many losses. You may be able to get a Keshik on it the first move of war.

There is a better trick to find out if someone has Iron or Copper, which also works before Alpha. Press Ctrl + Y, and the tile-yields will be shown to you, if one tile has an unusual number of yields, like a Grassland giving a , he has Copper / Iron.

This will probably play no role at all though, I've heard of Prince-AIs having something like 1 Archer in their cities at 1 AD, I doubt Noble AIs are even capable of producing any resistence if he keeps following the advice he gets and plays slowly.

 

[Todelotti]

Cool, it worked! De Gaulle is eliminated (see screenshot)! I only lost one Keshik against only a few archers, warriors and a single chariot. There was no metal in his territory.

He had 3 cities and I kept Orleans and Paris (they both had a Granary) but razed Lyons which had no building at all and I believe it was too far away and too close to Willem's borders (see the city ruins in the upper right corner 1N of incense, that was Lyons; the orange corner on the right edge is Willem). I don't know if razing was the right decision here. But I think expanding to North and West is the better direction. I also captured 2 workers from De Gaulle.

That said, you can probably still get a way with one or two unit whips in capital. If you pair this up with chops, you can get 4 Keshiks very fast with two 2 pop whips, if you have math.

-Put 10-19 hammers into a Keshik, then 2 pop whip it (absolutely not 20 or more hammers, or it will become a one pop whip).
-Next turn finish chopping a forest. With 60 hammers from whip and 10 hammers invested earlier, there will be 20 hammers overflow. Add 30 hammers from chop and the next Keshik is immediately completed.
-Next turn there will be some overflow from the chop and you start building the 3rd Keshik.
-The turn after that you can again 2 pop whip it.
-The turn after that you complete yet another chop and get the fourth Keshik.

That's 4 Keshiks from one city in 5 turns. Add 2 Keshiks from another city (one 2 pop whip and one chop) and you probably have enough to take out a noble AI at this stage of the game, unless he has spears.

I tried that but somehow messed it up and needed a lot more turns in the end (also I built more Keshiks to be on the safe side). I got Math during the Keshiks production, so some chops had 20 and some 30 hammers. Will try your strategy again next time.

It's also too early to build a Library yet. You should expand to 3 cities, before you build one...

Hm, now I have 4 cities and basically build libraries everywhere (partially with chopping). (In the capital the library is finished.) I thought I must get culture to push the borders soon - especially of the new French cities. Is that the wrong way? And if I don't build libraries what else would I build? Granaries are already in all cities and the only other options (regarding buildings, not units) are Barracks, Ger, Walls, Aqueduct and Monument.

Hmm... Here I thought THIS game you were on the economic path! Feel free to post the Huayna game too. If you build all the world's wonders make sure you don't get attacked...

You are doing fine. I still like your third city spot X1 (don't know if it still is your choice) up by the stone and horses and corn. You have such a good financial start that you should be able to afford that moderately far off city. That and maybe one more city and then time to teach De Gaulle who is boss...

I couldn't decide at the beginning which way to choose, but after starting with Huayna it was quickly clear that he is the better leader for the economic way, so I decided to do it differently with Genghis. But I will open a new thread if I have questions about the Huayna game, otherwise this thread gets a mess.

Yes, I think, the next city goes to X1 (building a new settler right now).


Some new questions:

_ I have just traded techs with Willem: He gave me Mysticism, Fishing and Iron Working for Horseback Riding. He was also willing to take Math from me for the same 3 techs. What is the better tech to trade? I thought, Math is the more advanced tech, so giving him "only" HBR is the better deal.

_ Asoka has spread Buddhism in 3 of my 4 cities. Should I convert? At the moment I don't have a state religion and I think getting the happiness and culture bonus is worth it to convert, right?

_ What are the next techs to research? I'm working on Currency at the moment and thought I will proceed with Calendar after that to be able to build plantations (especially for the multiple silk tiles next to Paris).

_ Should I aim for a second Keshik rush? I'm more inclined to develop my territory peacefully for the next centuries, especially because I have A LOT of room to expand without conflict at the moment. Willem in the east region is the closest and even he is not really close. The other leaders seem to be mainly in the north and are still rather far away (Pericles is next closest).

 

[Seraiel]

Cool, it worked! De Gaulle is eliminated (see screenshot)! I only lost one Keshik against only a few archers, warriors and a single chariot. There was no metal in his territory.

He had 3 cities and I kept Orleans and Paris (they both had a Granary) but razed Lyons which had no building at all and I believe it was too far away and too close to Willem's borders (see the city ruins in the upper right corner 1N of incense, that was Lyons; the orange corner on the right edge is Willem). I don't know if razing was the right decision here. But I think expanding to North and West is the better direction. I also captured 2 workers from De Gaulle.

If a city has Food, you should keep it. You don't have to worry so much about maintenance, because you're playing on a low difficulty, and even on the higher difficulties, one can counter higher distance maintenance very well. As I wrote, as long as you got Currency and a foreign Traderoute, a city is able to sustain itself.

I tried that but somehow messed it up and needed a lot more turns in the end (also I built more Keshiks to be on the safe side). I got Math during the Keshiks production, so some chops had 20 and some 30 hammers. Will try your strategy again next time.

To pull of rushes like elitetroops describes, you need to micro your cities, so you need to assign the citizens manually, and you have to pay high attention to production every round. CIV is a game, in which good micro is very important, so better you learn it now rather than later.

You need to disable the city-governor on the lower right bottom of the city-screen, and you should enable the log in the upper left corner on the main screen. Every time a city grows, you go to that city and check if it's citizens are working the best tiles. The city govenor does horrible things, like i. e. not working the Food, when a city is unhappy, so it's really best to not use him.

Hm, now I have 4 cities and basically build libraries everywhere (partially with chopping). (In the capital the library is finished.) I thought I must get culture to push the borders soon - especially of the new French cities. Is that the wrong way? And if I don't build libraries what else would I build? Granaries are already in all cities and the only other options (regarding buildings, not units) are Barracks, Ger, Walls, Aqueduct and Monument.

Monuments are a lot cheaper for Borderpops than libraries, and Religion also gives you , if it's your state Religion or if you run no Religion at all, like now. Better get more cities, don't stop at 4, think 20 when you have 10 and 40 when you have 20. As I wrote, in CIV, more cities are basically always good.

Some new questions:

_ I have just traded techs with Willem: He gave me Mysticism, Fishing and Iron Working for Horseback Riding. He was also willing to take Math from me for the same 3 techs. What is the better tech to trade? I thought, Math is the more advanced tech, so giving him "only" HBR is the better deal.

Better give him Maths, with HBR, he gets better units, and you may want to conquer him directly afterwards, because troops that stand around are a worthless investment.

_ Asoka has spread Buddhism in 3 of my 4 cities. Should I convert? At the moment I don't have a state religion and I think getting the happiness and culture bonus is worth it to convert, right?

You get the also without having a State Religion. The is nice though, and as Asoka probably is also buddhist and is on "Missionary Strategy" (building less units and spreading Religion) , it's likely that most of your neighbours will become buddhist, so yes. Try to adopt the religion of your neighbours, to gain diplomacy bonuses.

_ What are the next techs to research? I'm working on Currency at the moment and thought I will proceed with Calendar after that to be able to build plantations (especially for the multiple silk tiles next to Paris).

_ Should I aim for a second Keshik rush? I'm more inclined to develop my territory peacefully for the next centuries, especially because I have A LOT of room to expand without conflict at the moment. Willem in the east region is the closest and even he is not really close. The other leaders seem to be mainly in the north and are still rather far away (Pericles is next closest).

Currency is a good choice. You can also think about researching Construction, and conquering the whole map with Catapults + Elephants though. To get Elephants, you must settle an Ivory resource and connect it, Elephants are the superior unit of the classical age and last until the enemy has Rifles. Code of Laws afterwards would be good, because it unlocks Civil Service, which multiplies the and the of your capital if you switch to Bureacracy (elitetroops already made a post about that) .
Calendar is often teched by the AI, so it's no desirable choice. Should the AIs be so slow in your game though, that they aren't able to contribute anything, which depends on how well you play, you should self-tech Calendar probably, but more after CS, to better sustain your growing army by having more .

Other choice would be to peacefully expand ("REX") to all available land as long as there's Food, but simply killing the AIs is cheaper and easier, but you decide, if you i. e. want to learn the basics of a Space Race victory, REXing to all available land makes sense, if you want to go for Culture, you need a completely different tech-path than the one I suggested, if you want to go for Diplomacy or the Apostolic Palace, you also need a different tech path and be nice to the AIs so they become your friends. Domination / Conquest is usually the cheapest, but most fun type of victory, Space Races requires the most skill and lets you play the game through completely, Culture needs good calculations and diplomacy takes a little longer than Domination / Conquest, but it's also very easy and very cheap. AP is even cheaper than Domination / Conquest, and is not regarded as a real victory by the most players, because it can be achieved at 2000 BC and requires a totally unique style of play.

 

[schadenfreude]

Cool, it worked! De Gaulle is eliminated (see screenshot)! I only lost one Keshik against only a few archers, warriors and a single chariot. There was no metal in his territory.

He had 3 cities and I kept Orleans and Paris (they both had a Granary) but razed Lyons which had no building at all and I believe it was too far away and too close to Willem's borders (see the city ruins in the upper right corner 1N of incense, that was Lyons; the orange corner on the right edge is Willem). I don't know if razing was the right decision here. But I think expanding to North and West is the better direction. I also captured 2 workers from De Gaulle.



I tried that but somehow messed it up and needed a lot more turns in the end (also I built more Keshiks to be on the safe side). I got Math during the Keshiks production, so some chops had 20 and some 30 hammers. Will try your strategy again next time.



Hm, now I have 4 cities and basically build libraries everywhere (partially with chopping). (In the capital the library is finished.) I thought I must get culture to push the borders soon - especially of the new French cities. Is that the wrong way? And if I don't build libraries what else would I build? Granaries are already in all cities and the only other options (regarding buildings, not units) are Barracks, Ger, Walls, Aqueduct and Monument.



I couldn't decide at the beginning which way to choose, but after starting with Huayna it was quickly clear that he is the better leader for the economic way, so I decided to do it differently with Genghis. But I will open a new thread if I have questions about the Huayna game, otherwise this thread gets a mess.

Yes, I think, the next city goes to X1 (building a new settler right now).


Some new questions:

_ I have just traded techs with Willem: He gave me Mysticism, Fishing and Iron Working for Horseback Riding. He was also willing to take Math from me for the same 3 techs. What is the better tech to trade? I thought, Math is the more advanced tech, so giving him "only" HBR is the better deal.

_ Asoka has spread Buddhism in 3 of my 4 cities. Should I convert? At the moment I don't have a state religion and I think getting the happiness and culture bonus is worth it to convert, right?

_ What are the next techs to research? I'm working on Currency at the moment and thought I will proceed with Calendar after that to be able to build plantations (especially for the multiple silk tiles next to Paris).

_ Should I aim for a second Keshik rush? I'm more inclined to develop my territory peacefully for the next centuries, especially because I have A LOT of room to expand without conflict at the moment. Willem in the east region is the closest and even he is not really close. The other leaders seem to be mainly in the north and are still rather far away (Pericles is next closest).

The AIs all run towards Math, which makes Horseback Riding more rare and therefore more valuable; not a big deal but next time you'd probably do better to trade math. That isn't explained in any of the instructions. It is just something you learn through playing and reading the forums.

The number one rule of Civ is "play the map". That means play the hand that is dealt to you. Sometimes you'll be all set to play a peaceful culture win campaign, and you will be constantly attacked. Sometimes you will have a tremendous early warring unit, but so much land it doesn't make too much sense to use. If you have a lot of good land I think you should try and develop it peaceably. Lots of times you will find that a war can be TOO successful. You take over so much territory and have so many troops in foreign lands that your economy grinds to a halt. War is one skill and recovering from war is quite another.

You can keep the keshiks in reserve and beeline towards cuirassiers. Your highly promoted keshiks can be upgraded, and the rest can come along for the ride.

Congrats on taking out France. Did you run into any spears on hills?

 

[Ironlungs76]

I built more Keshiks to be on the safe side.

A few units too many is better than not enough, you can use any excess to take out any Barbarian cities that may have appeared so it's certainly not a wasted investment.

Hm, now I have 4 cities and basically build libraries everywhere (partially with chopping). (In the capital the library is finished.) I thought I must get culture to push the borders soon - especially of the new French cities. Is that the wrong way? And if I don't build libraries what else would I build? Granaries are already in all cities and the only other options (regarding buildings, not units) are Barracks, Ger, Walls, Aqueduct and Monument.

If you're building Libraries in all cities (a solid idea) you won't need Monuments unless you're playing as a Charismatic leader for the +1 happiness.

Walls are usually a waste of time unless you're getting attacked or are playing as Spain (due to their Unique Building being a Castle thus requiring a Wall).

Aqueducts are nice but only really needed in your larger cities (ie at this stage in the game probably only your Capitol when it nears Health maximum).

So, Libraries, Barracks and maybe Gers, latterly Forges and Courthouses when you have Metal Casting and CoL techs respectively.

the next city goes to X1 (building a new settler right now).

Looks like a good spot, definitely go for it.

Some new questions:

_ I have just traded techs with Willem: He gave me Mysticism, Fishing and Iron Working for Horseback Riding. He was also willing to take Math from me for the same 3 techs. What is the better tech to trade? I thought, Math is the more advanced tech, so giving him "only" HBR is the better deal.

_ Asoka has spread Buddhism in 3 of my 4 cities. Should I convert? At the moment I don't have a state religion and I think getting the happiness and culture bonus is worth it to convert, right?

_ What are the next techs to research? I'm working on Currency at the moment and thought I will proceed with Calendar after that to be able to build plantations (especially for the multiple silk tiles next to Paris).

1. As mentioned above, HBR is 'rarer' early on as all AIs seem to tech Maths pretty early. WvO could trade this to any of the other AI and with Construction and Ivory they can build War Elephants, a nasty counter to Horse Archers.

2. Unless you're hurting for happiness I'd be tempted to wait until I knew what religion Shaka and Sury adopted and follow their lead (they are the most dangerous AIs on the map so being on their good side wouldn't be a bad idea unless you are planning on attacking either in the near future).

3. Currency and Code of Laws to help support your growing empire for sure. Currency for the extra trade routes and CoL so you can whip Courthouses in all cities to keep maintenance costs down and therefore your research rate higher. Calendar is nice but again quite a common tech for the AI to get early and can usually be traded for quite easily.

Regarding trade routes, one point I don't think has been mentioned above, you will want to connect your cities with roads as the newly conquered French cities don't appear to be connected according to the screenshots. After connecting them maybe then build a road into WvO for extra trade routes if you aren't already getting any foreign trade route income.

Good progress

 

[elitetroops]

Congrats on taking out De Gaulle!

Some very good advice already. With Buddhism in 3 of 4 cities, I'd convert. Then trade for Monotheism and switch to Organized religion. Try to time the switch with some other civic changes so that you don't get too many turns of anarchy. Another common strategy is to beeline Music and use the free Great Artist for a Golden Age and change civics then.

You have marble, so you could consider Aesthetics->Lit next, then Code of Laws->Civil Service. Build the Great Library as fast as possible (this is also a time where pre-chopping is worth it, do most of the chopping work before you even have the tech). Great Library will give you Great Scientists, which you can use to bulb techs later. But Seraiel might be right that heading straight for CS is better. I'd skip construction for now, not because a war with pults and elephants is bad, but because I think you'd learn a more universally useful strategy if you take a different path.

But before that, you should be running 2 scientists in a city with good food and use the first Great Scientist you generate to build Academy in capital. Your capital is already making decent amounts of commerce, the sooner you get the Academy there, the better. Main problem is that you don't have any cities with good food except capital... I'd consider generating the first Great Scientist by running 2 scientists in Paris. Farm the riverside grasslands and it can still grow a bit while doing so. It should take you 17 turns of 2 scientists to give birth to the first GS.

I usually trade for Calendar as well, but the AI might be too slow for this on noble. You have both silks and Spices available, so maybe still worth selfteching for happiness... But if you can delay it, I suggest waiting for a trade. Trading Math to Willem instead of HBR would have helped you here as well, it would have allowed him to research Calendar and you could get it earlier in trade.

As for city builds, don't forget that after Currency you can also build Wealth. Sometimes this might be the best thing to build, let's you keep your slider higher, which means that more commerce goes through those science multiplier buildings. As mentioned, don't build walls (walls are whipped one turn before the city is attacked if you really need them), and many other buildings aren't needed either. If you are not going to continue the war now, then barracks and stables at this point are also useless. But there's a lot of land to fill, so workers and settlers are good choices. Soon you'll have more things to build. Oh, and please don't build markets, except maybe in cap if you have 2 or more of the resources it gives extra happy for.

For the overall strategy, I agree with shadenfreude that you should go for Cuirassiers. This is a very strong move, that usually works on most maps. Learning to pull it off well is often what makes players move up from noble all the way to immortal. The idea is to focus on the upper part of the tech tree, aim for Education, Gunpowder and Nationalism, then take Military Tradition as the free tech with Liberalism. After that you can shut down teching and use cuirassiers to conquer the rest of the world. Or continue teching to rifling and finish the last AI with Cavalry.

Many techs on the path can be bulbed by Great Scientists (Philosophy, Paper, Education). This makes Great Library very valuable, as it produces a ton of Great Scientist points. If you for example can use 2 Great Scientists to double bulb education (the tech is so big that one is not enough), this saves a lot of turns and you get the Cuirs a lot earlier. The first Great Scientist you generate should still be used for Academy in capital.

 

[elitetroops]

A couple of comments on the screenshot:

-Workers can stay away from plains Tiles for now. This goes for both standard plains tiles and plains hills Even with improvements they are not worth working. In Orleans for example that farm should be on one of the grassland tiles instead. If there is forest on all riverside grassland tiles, then you chop it and farm.
-Prioritize riverside tiles when cottaging, there's still one green riverside tile that can be cottaged in capital (2E of city).
-You don't have any fogbusters. Barbs spawn in the fog, but they cannot spawn within 2 tiles from any other unit. So if you place out some units 5 tiles apart, about 3-4 tiles outside your borders, no barbs can spawn nearby at all. Right now I'd say it is especially important to send a unit to the tile 1E of X1. This makes sure that no barb can spawn between that unit and your lands, and the area will be clear of barbs once you send the settler there. You can send a Keshik from Paris to handle this.
-You built an archer in Beshbalik. If barbs are handled correctly with spawnbusters and fought off outside your border, archers for city defense are not needed. Warriors are cheaper and handle unhappiness just as well.

Finally, I very warmly recommend you get BUG mod. It's a mod that doesn't alter the gameplay, it just makes the user interface a lot more user friendly. For example, it puts information like how soon and where will you get the next Great Person, how far are you from generating the next Great General and how many cities does each AI have right there on the screen in front of you. This is all information that you have available without it as well, but you would have to dig through a lot of screens to find it. It also shows on the city screen the thresholds for whipping and you can see in one glance when the 2 pop whip would become a 1 pop whip, for example. Install the mod into your Custom Assets folder, and it will load automatically even if the game wasn't started with BUG mod, so you can still use it for this game.

 

[Pangaea]

Good advice above already, and I thoroughly support installing BUG. It's such a great mod, once you try it you won't go back. I can't imagine playing without it, and even miss some features that are in BUG but not in BUFFY (a special mod for playing for the Hall of Fame).

However, I'd like to expand on Currency, to show why it's such an important tech.

1. It doubles the trade routes per city (if it's connected to your capital) from 1 to 2, which alone is a pretty big deal early in the game.
2. It allows you to trade resources for gold per turn (GPT). If you have excess corn for example, but other AIs don't have anything they can or will trade to you, you can trade them the excess corn for however much GPT they have available, for example 2 GPT. Not much, but it helps, and later in the game you can get a lot more gold per turn from each AI. Every small stream...
3. It allows you to exchange money when making tech trades, which means you'll get a more even exchange most of the time. If for example you trade a tech to the AI that is a fair bit more expensive science than you get in return, you can get some gold as part of the deal too. Click the button that says something like "What would make this deal acceptable?" and you get an offer from the AI that is on the limit of what he'll offer (most of the time, sometimes you can get more).
4. Basically a variant of the above, but you can sell them techs for gold. If you are ahead in the tech race early, this can be huge for your research rate. You can sell them Priesthood, Monotheism, Polytheism and so forth for 20-30 each, and this really adds up, and quickly. If you can get 300 over a few turns, this means you can research at 100% for a very long time, catapulting you further ahead tech-wise.
5. You can beg gold (or techs) from an AI that is Pleased with you, and unless you ask for extortionate sums, they will usually accept. Early on this can be for example 30 and more later. This also gets you a 10-turn cease fire with them, which alone can be a huge deal if you're plotting war and are afraid of somebody else backstabbing you or getting bribed into the war.

Therefore, once you have the essential worker techs, Math and Alpha, I think it's very strong to go for Currency early, and then Civil Service after that (trade or Oracle Code of Laws, or alternatively self-tech it). If you can get Civil Service in the BCs, you'll be in a very strong position, with an Academy on top.

 

[Todelotti]

Hello all, thanks for all that overwhelming support! I've tried to apply as many of your tips as possible. However, in one point it went differently than I planned: When I set up the Keshik fogbuster next to X1 as elitetroops suggested, I did not find barbarians in the dark but instead Pericles with a Chariot and ... a Settler! And he settled the next turn almost on X1, my selected new city spot. That made me so angry, grrrrh, that I started to build a few more Keshiks and declared war on Pericles!

Well, now we have another civ less on the map but I have more cities to develop, manage and care to defend them.

For the possible suggested ways to continue I decided to head towards Curassiers and then see if I can attack another civ!

My current status is:

_ Year 1 AD
_ 8 cities (my 2 home cities, the new founded city on X1, the 2 captured French cities and 3 captured Greek cities)
_ I have Currency, CoL and CS finished and I'm researching Aesthetics now (a quick Polytheism was in between)
_ Got Sailing, Priesthood, Monotheism and Monarchy from other leaders
_ Changed civics to Hereditary Rule and Bureaucracy
_ I still didn't convert to any religion
_ 2 scientists are employed in Paris to get a Great Scientist and Academy in the capital (9 turns to go)

My 2 main questions for today are:

_ I have a crazy mix of religions in my cities and could convert to everything that is founded until now. Shaka adopted Buddhism, so there are 2 leaders now that share this religion. Converting to Buddhism might be a good option therefore. On the other hand I founded Confuzianism. Wouldn't that be the better choice to convert to the religion that I founded myself because it gives more culture in the holy city?

_ What makes me a bit nervous is that I still don't have access to any metal resource. My military completely relies on horses. Copper is quite far away and the iron resources are just 1 or 2 tiles outside my borders and it will still take tenth of turns before the borders push to an iron tile. My next step will be to settle at the coast (see attached screenshot), the Settler is just finished. I'm considering actually 2 cities: at 1E of rice (which would give me that iron tile immediately) and at 1N of deer. What do you think about these spots? I have to be quick with settling, I believe, because this coast has a lot of visitors from all empires and had already barb cities twice. It's possibly only a question of a few turns when a foreign settler will appear there.

_ Side question: If I capture the Great Wall (I got it from Pericles in Athens) is it immediately in effect for my whole empire? I have the impression, the answer is Yes because somehow it became quiet with barbarians inside my borders. I'm not 100 percent sure though.

 

[elitetroops]

Hello all, thanks for all that overwhelming support! I've tried to apply as many of your tips as possible. However, in one point it went differently than I planned: When I set up the Keshik fogbuster next to X1 as elitetroops suggested, I did not find barbarians in the dark but instead Pericles with a Chariot and ... a Settler! And he settled the next turn almost on X1, my selected new city spot. That made me so angry, grrrrh, that I started to build a few more Keshiks and declared war on Pericles!

Hehe... taking out noble AI is just so easy, as you can see.

Well, now we have another civ less on the map but I have more cities to develop, manage and care to defend them.

Don't worry too much about defending. One warrior/city is still enough, except if you want more for HR happiness. And you also have the Keshiks that can be used to control happiness in new cities if you aren't going to war soon. With the captured Great Wall no barbs can enter your borders, and with so many Keshiks and a much bigger empire than anyone else, I think you probably have the highest power rating. AI fears to attack anyone with a higher power rating. Power comes from units, population and tech, and some buildings like barracks and Walls (and a ton from Great Wall). I think you are ahead of everyone in most areas. This makes you virtually immune to attacks.

And even if someone could attack you, they always attack the closest city. Shaka is the biggest warmonger here, so if you just brought your leftover Keshiks to the city closest to his border, you're safe. Cities further back in your empire never need anything more than a single warrior.

_ I have a crazy mix of religions in my cities and could convert to everything that is founded until now. Shaka adopted Buddhism, so there are 2 leaders now that share this religion. Converting to Buddhism might be a good option therefore. On the other hand I founded Confuzianism. Wouldn't that be the better choice to convert to the religion that I founded myself because it gives more culture in the holy city?

It's rarely a good idea to convert to a religion you founded yourself. Buddhism seems like a good choice here. Then you should adopt Organized Religion.

_ What makes me a bit nervous is that I still don't have access to any metal resource. My military completely relies on horses. Copper is quite far away and the iron resources are just 1 or 2 tiles outside my borders and it will still take tenth of turns before the borders push to an iron tile. My next step will be to settle at the coast (see attached screenshot), the Settler is just finished. I'm considering actually 2 cities: at 1E of rice (which would give me that iron tile immediately) and at 1N of deer. What do you think about these spots? I have to be quick with settling, I believe, because this coast has a lot of visitors from all empires and had already barb cities twice. It's possibly only a question of a few turns when a foreign settler will appear there.

No metals is absolutely no problem right now. You don't really need any until you need iron for cuirassiers. Having no metals is actually a good thing, because then you can still build cheap warriors. In capital for example, it looks like you are currently building a 80 temple. Stop that immediately and build a warrior instead. It costs only 15 and under Hereditary Rule it gives the same benefit. The +1 from temple doesn't count as a benefit, because you don't do anything with that. Being able to spam warriors for HR happiness is great really. Even if you had Iron within your borders, it might be better to not build a road there and hook it up yet, because 15/ is awesome!

I'd put X2 right between rice and pig. That is one awesome spot for a GP farm. They have pigs immediately and with a farm E of pig, the rice would be irrigated through city, so that one becomes a decent tile as well. You can quickly grow to a size where you can whip a library, then once you get fish online this city will grow extremely fast. It also has iron and a couple of grasshills for good production. You can mine the iron but leave out the road, if you still want more cheap happiness.

 

[elitetroops]

Still about the power rating, you can check this from the demographics tab on the info screen, where it is listed as "Soldiers".

But, to clarify, having the highest power rating is NOT something you should aim to have. On higher levels this is impossible early on, because the AI spams units like crazy. When the AI decides to go to war, power rating only acts as an on/off switch. If you are above the threshold of being too powerful to be considered a target, then you are immune to attack. (The AI threshold for how strong opponents they consider to attack varies by the leader, but in most cases if you are above their power rating, you are safe.) If you are below the threshold, then it doesn't matter if your power rating is almost high enough, or if you have only one warrior, you are still just as likely to become a target. As you mostly can't get above the threshold on higher levels before you start an offensive war, power rating doesn't matter at all. In fact, in culture or diplo games where I don't plan to war, I often have like 10-20% the power rating of the strongest AI and instead use diplomacy to avoid war.

But if you happen to have the highest power rating, which you might have here, then good for you. You are immune to attacks.

 

[Ironlungs76]

With the captured Great Wall no barbs can enter your borders

With the exception of barb galleys, the annoying pillaging swines.

Maybe consider building a Galley/Trireme to defend any seafood resources you may have just in case.

 

[Todelotti]

OK, I will place the new city between rice and pig. And convert to Buddhism and Org. Religion in 4 turns (can't now due to the last civics change).

I'm wondering now how I improve the tiles around the capital. On the attached screenshot I've marked the tiles with C (Cottage/Commerce), with F (Farm/Food) and P (Production). Some have question marks, basically the 4 hills as I don't know exactly when I can build a Farm and when a Cottage on a hill. Or should I consider mines there? I thought, the 2 "C ?" tiles are candidates for cottages because of the commerce bonus on a river. The 3 "C or F ?" tiles are not on a river. They could be a mix of farms and cottages.

Another question: I really would like to get Calendar soon because I have so many resources (mainly Sugar (from Greece), Silk (from France) and Spices (and an Incense will be in my border in a few turns)) that could benefit from plantations (in total around 10 tiles). The only civ that seems to have Calendar is Sury but on the trading screen it is red ("we don't want to trade this tech just yet..."), similar with Metal Casting that is red on Willem's trade list. Can I encourage him somehow to open those techs up for trading?

More an event report than a question : I was worried for a moment when Sury was entering my territory with a stack of around 8 to 10 mainly Axemen and Spearmen. However it turned out he was just passing through and now he declared war on Willem. Which is kind of crazy because Willem is at least 15 turns away from his home territory (Sury is in the north west corner and Willem in the south east). It won't be easy for him to send reinforcements. I'm wondering now if I could consider attacking Sury soon because his home cities are probably weakened by his war in Willem's empire...

 

[Pangaea]

Don't cottage hills. Put mines there, and work the green hills. The plains hills aren't all that great tbh (no food), but becomes better later when you can windmill them. Since this is your capital and you have plenty of food, I'd cottage all non-riverside tiles too. Then use helper cities to help grow the cottages until the capital has grown big enough to take them over. That way you get more bang for your Buro bucks.

Much later you can choose to watermill riverside tiles or workshop tiles, but in the early game you can't even build those improvements, and they're crap until you get fairly high up the tech tree anyway.

They'd be willing to trade those techs, but they need to be friendly with you. When more AIs get them, they will eventually be willing to trade them to you, but that can take time of course.

 

[Todelotti]

Hi all, today I have a question about combat strategy. With all your help I managed to take out Sury as the third civ (mainly with elephants, a couple catapults and mazes and the first few knights that I built).

Asoka offered me to be my vassal which I accepted. Now I have Shaka and Willem on the cards. Willem is Shaka's vassal and they both declared war against me. Shaka is stronger in power than Willem (although less advanced in tech, but he has just a lot more military units).

I am building Cuirassiers since quite a few turns and I'm 2 turns away from Rifling.

My question is how important it is to build siege weapons. I'm right now in front of one of Shaka's cities with a large stack of mainly Cuirassiers and Knights. However I haven't the best combat odds against the longbows in the city and it is certain that I will lose some units and get heavy damage. The city is on a hill, behind a river and the longbows have good promotions and boni plus the city has a defense rate of over 70% and has walls and maybe even a castle. I would really like to have a lot of catapults now in my stack to lower the city defense and later apply collateral damage to the city units before I attack with my mounted military.

The ugly thing is that the catapults move so slow compared to the Cuirassiers and Knights and I will just lose a lot of time before enough catapults would arrive giving Shaka more time to strengthen his defense even more.

What is the best strategy here (considering that I have to take out a lot more cities, not only this one that's just in front of me)? Basically I have in mind: 1) Either do it slowly and wait for enough siege weapons but risk that the opponent gets stronger during that waiting time, 2) Or attack now, losing quite a few units and continue to constantly build Cuirassiers in multiple cities (ignoring to build catapults completely) and reinforce the lost units.

 

[elitetroops]

Mounted warfare is all about speed, so no siege. You will lose a few units here and there, but that's why you build a lot of them. You can probably stop building anything else and only build cuirs everywhere, if there is only a couple of more AI to take out. You can also whip liberally everywhere, as you don't need to tech anything more after rifling.

Walls and castles have no effect against gunpowder units, no need to worry about those. Only cultural defense applies. Try to plan your attack paths so that you can avoid attacking across rivers. If he has his main stack inside a city, it can be a good idea to try to lure it out of there, so you can attack without him having the extra defensive bonus. Or you can take out some cities with weaker defense first, while waiting for more cuirs to catch up.

 

[FlyingSwan]

Cavalry will take out LBs so you could wait and mass upgrade.Cuirissars should be able to take out his smaller citys without seige.You need trebuchets,not catapults for attacking citys,catapults are good for doing collateral damage in the open field in the medieval era.

As long as you keep building units,and have enough units to take a city you can win most conquests without seige.You can always build an auxillary force of musketmen,trebs with a couple of pikemen as stack protectors.You will want the LBs or muskets as garrison units for your captured citys anyway.

A trick for when using knights/cuirissars agaist tough citys is to use spys to cause a city revolt-this brings the defences down to 0% for 1 turn.Also you can use them to sabotage wall/castles.This takes some pre planning though.About 10 turns before you attack you want 2 or 3 spys in the toughest citys,parked there for at least 5 turns to bring down espionage cost.Put all your spy points on whomever your attacking about 10 turns beforehand(and adjust the ammount of gold you spend on spy points as you need to),then when you attack the city make sure you have enough troops to take it out in 1 turn as you cause the city revolt.

 

[Pangaea]

One can win Immortal maps with only Cuirs, so that is a good strategy. Typically you only have poor-ish odds against the top defenders, and once they go down you'll get great odds on most units. Warfare is quick and usually very effective. You can blitz over cities before the AI can do anything about it. Get a big stack of Cuirs in place, declare, and take city(ies) on first turn of the war. Heal up a little if needed (get a supermedic with your first great general -> attach it to a single unit, and upgrade combat1-medic1-medic2-medic3), and move on to other cities. If possible, take out their main stack in the open as you get much better odds there. Once you get Cavalry you'll be laughing. They eat up longbows for breakfast and lunch, and laugh about it on the way home in the evening.